Tommy's probably just settling national scores here: remember the "Intergalactic" video set in Tokyo, and totally ripped off Toho Godzilla movies? But when Jewish New York rappers do it it's not pakuri, it's a tribute, it's kosher, right? And what about the 70s cop shows Spike himself was pakuring? And who invented rap, anyway? You know, when you try to separate who owns what pop culture property, things get very blurry and even the police sirens turn out to be spoofs.

Adrock: Listen to the man, this land is ill
MCA: When it's in Japan it's always TER-
Adrock: -MI-
Mike D: -AL!

Good to have you back, Momus. My blood pressure was down.

Again to my definition of pakuri: "an artistic use of creative elements from other works used within a similar context without acknowledgement of the original."

Okay, TomFeb6 is clearly winking to the original, but my problem is that 1) there is absolutely no reason for her video to be referencing "Sabotage" - seeing that it doesn't fit with the rest of the scenes at all. 2) If she had referenced an 80s video, that would have at least fit with the "meta-joke" of the project.

My problem is not one of "pakuri = bad" as much as "this is terrible, lazy borrowing." And we're back to our normal bickering: "everything in Japan is created by different logic than that of Western civilization and therefore all offlimits from criticism" vs. "we are in a globalized world where we all share a similar logic of commercialism and capitalism and therefore works can be compared to each other."

Your argument is a bit self-contradictory here. Your definition of pakuri says the borrowing has to be "used in a similar context", and yet you also complain that TF6 uses her reference out of context to the rest of her song / video. So which is it, in context or out? And who are the context police who decide if something is a legitimate wink (the Toho spoof in "Intergalactic") or not? And can they drive very fast around cultural corners?

By "context," I mean using something within the same narrow context as the original. Hip hop uses 70s funk and soul within a new context; bad pakuri hip hop would re-use parts of current hip hop songs within a new song. The original Sabotage used old 70s cop show footage in a 90s music video, whereas the TomFeb6 video barely parodies a classic, not-so-old music video for a music video.

An American band ripping off a Beastie Boys video would get similar grunts and groans, no?

But TF6 is not a hip hop artist, surely that changes the context?

I recently found out that Cornelius had lifted important bits of "Point" from Caetano Veloso's "Araca Azul" (1973) album. Not only do I not think that diminishes Cornelius (although I have problems with "Point" for other reasons), I think it's an absolutely integral part of why I admire his work in general. He's a great curator, and it took me several years to discover the records Cornelius was inspired by. My thinking now is "How can I too use elements of this great record by Caetano?" This is all perfectly legitimate; it's called influence. Cornelius surprised and pleased Caetano himself by his choice of a track from "Araca Azul" for a tribute to CV that came out this year (Caetano considers that album a "failure"; he's wrong about his own work, I think, and the public was also wrong about it when it came out). Keigo has paid CV back any cultural debt he might have owed him (rather in the mutually-enriching way Eminem pays his cultural debt back to hip hop by releasing 50 Cent records on his label).

I haven't heard TF6's new stuff (or the Tommy Heavenly 6 side-project-to-the-side-project), but I liked her first album. I thought it was a rather fresh and ironic concept. Cutesy, nerdy, retro-80s, tongue-in-cheek yet sincere (did you notice the refs to the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" video in the cheerleader choreography, by the way?) She's one of the people I think is doing re-contextualization in an interesting way. I think it's wrong to talk about pakuri in this case. She's pure glowmo pomo, bro!

At his best, Cornelius recontextualizes relatively obscure music. This makes Point and Fantasma pretty great records. At his worst, he minorly rewrites old songs. This makes 69/96 and First Question Award throw-aways.

TF6 intially was great, but she's fallen into that Jpop hole of having to repeat yourself ad nauseum for fearing of breaking the "brand image" and sacred relation with the hardcore fans.

I think it's wrong to talk about pakuri in this case.

What everyone likes about her is the fact that she does bad, forgotten 80s synthpop - complete with synth brass solos and electronic tom fills - that is old enough to be dug back up successfully. All her musical work is in the realm of pastiche - using conventions, but not whole phrases.

When she does "Sabotage" for no apparent reason, this is bad pakuri. She's not making a comment on the 90s nor doing a parody/pastiche/satire of the work itself, nor rediscovering lost masterpieces a la Cornelius. Just putting it in there because she can.

In this day and age, the debate is not whether sampling/referential art is "original" or not; the question boils down to, is it good, creative use of the prior work? Early TomFeb6 was, this video is not.

I have no idea who the hell yall are arguing about, but I just wanted to say that momus's first reply was hilarious in a very very good way.

BTW does anyone besides me remember the Beastie Boys as a punk band?

"everything in Japan is created by different logic than that of Western civilization and therefore all offlimits from criticism"

I don't know what Alin's going to say, but you completely misjudged my goal shot here. My line is not the "Japceptionalist" one here. It's that postmodernism is a universal cultural condition. Tommy F and the Beastie Boys are both playing the same game. In fact, it's your argument here which plays on cultural exceptionalism. You seemed initially to be saying that Japanese referencing was uncreative, but American referencing was creative. You do this by (in your Nihonjinron way!) using a Japanese word—pakuri—for the "crime" you describe, as if only Japanese can be accused of it. Now you've retreated to a more wishy-washy stance: these things have to be decided on a case-by-case basis. Irregardless, presumably, of whether they're Japanese or not. (Only trouble with that is that you're still using pakuri on the rap sheet, so it looks unlikely you'll be making a citizen's arrest on any Western artists for that particular crime any time soon.

What does 'found out' mean, Momus?
Did you hear anything specific on Cornelius "LIFTING" bits from Caetanos record? Or are you just referrening to you own blog: http://www.livejournal.com/users/imomus/145640.html ?

I'm not saying your arguments aren't valid, they sure sound like they could be. At least, this record obviously means something special to Cornelius, since he chose that song for the compilation.

I just want some clarity, since you are presenting all this as solid facts, and you make it seem like you got the information from some undisclosed source - when in fact you are referring to yourself...
which is it?

'Lifted' sounds pretty harsh, do you mean he ripped off specific details of Caetanos record, or just that he was inspired by the style and spirit of it?

Thanks for the tip anyways, am going to check out that Caetano album.

do you mean he ripped off specific details of Caetanos record, or just that he was inspired by the style and spirit of it

Listen to the track Cornelius chose for the CV tribute album, "Gilberto Misterioso". I promise you'll hear immediately what I mean. It's in the vocal harmonies, the placing of the clipped acoustic guitar chords, the mixture of warm acoustic ambience and gentle experimentalism, the use of mics... I haven't read Cornelius interviews, but I'm sure he's been quite open about it. It's his MO: I remember when he was doing it with Beastie Boys tracks (when I got sent his backing track for "Le Roi Soleil" back in 1996 I thought, "Hey, it's the Beastie Boys with a bit of Pink Floyd's "Astronomy Domini" going on in the backing vocals).

This makes 69/96 and First Question Award throw-aways.

here we go... i actually just recently considered these 2 the finest Cornelius albums. in reverse order. and the only ones i could actually bear to listen to even now. FQA because if its innocence and genuiness. whatever it may have borrowed , the source of expression and sensibility behind was so removed from the form that it makes for a truly fresh album. like the fishmans' stuff at the time. (viewed through a (ethnocentric) rock formalist/historian glasses this is surely not the case.) 69/96 coz it's conceptually and intelectually fucking brilliant and totaly wild. and so layered and esoteric while accessible and funkee. inspired rather than overwrought (fantasma). everything went downhill from there :-)

how about the kelly osbourne song that sounds just like a lame (read +madonna-like catchy chorus) cover of visage fade to grey. [incidentally this is a song that momus ironically samples somwhere for something like 5 sec while kelly take some 70% wholesale but i guess in her case we wouln't speak pakuri - it'd be more along the lines of a 'hollywood remake'] i havn't had the chance to hear much popular stuff from the us lately but what i've heard on my recent trip to australia just about everything sounded like other things from the 90s and 80s.

It's what Malcolm McLaren calls "karaoke culture". Except that, unlike Marxy, McLaren is taking a Japanese word and applying it to cultures all over the world. For Marxy, pakuri can apparently only be used in a Japanese (and negative, natch) context.

It's that postmodernism is a universal cultural condition. Tommy F and the Beastie Boys are both playing the same game.

But there are different levels of skill in that game - or at least, different abilities of awareness towards the criteria in which these works are judged.

I'm not complaining that "the Japanese" sample or borrow or reference; I'm complaining - like other Japanese do - when new songs outright steal elements from other new songs or videos still elements from new videos without it being a satire, parody, or pastiche.

For a long time, the whole rule of sampling (broad meaning here) was judgment based on obscurity, and that's why no one would every use the word pakuri for Momus stuff from the mid-90s. The problem with Cornelius' First Question Award is that there are songs that are note-for-note, timbre-for-timbre, production point-for-production point re-writes of Rogers Nichols songs that suck all the life out of the original and don't add anything at all. They are just like watching a high school rock band jump around and act out rock conventions for their own personal sense of fun.

A good example of non-pakuri referencing is the Buffalo Daughter song "New Rock," which is clearly nodding to Neu's "Hallo Gallo" in parts, but is a broad pastiche with lots of new melodic and production additions.

If you're going to reference something, there has to be "value-added." And when I (and other Japanese people) complain about "pakuri" (or the stronger word "touyou"), they are specifically complaining about works that borrow without acknowledgment, reason, or added value.

If you actually saw this video (or any of the specific pakuri I talk about), you'd say to yourself, that was dumb. But since I'm attacking it, you need to step in and defend all Japanese examples of referential art.

Karaoke is fine. It's fun for an individual to act out the fantasy of being "inside" a famous work of art, but it's generally boring for the audience. TomFeb6 can act out Sabotage all she wants on her own time, but why go as far as to put that into the video?

i havn't had the chance to hear much popular stuff from the us lately but what i've heard on my recent trip to australia just about everything sounded like other things from the 90s and 80s.

US Top 40 rock right now is pretty terrible, but mainstream hip hop usually has some tricks up its sleeve.

Man cannot create in a vacuum. I'll go one step further and say that man creates nothing. He merely remixes and restates the obvious. At the risk of being totally discounted by the obvious "cultural elite" here, I shall quote... aaargh! ... Bono: "Every artist is a cannibal, every poet a thief."

Stop bellyaching about who owns what and just make stuff. You own nothing. Authenticity is a dream. Originality is ignorance. Style, in (aaaargh! forgive me) Bukowski's definition, is all that matters.

When you come across dog shit walking down the street, do you step in it? Of course you have something to complain about then! But *you* stepped in it.

;)

forgive the rant. you guys make me all hot and bothered... :p

postmodernism is a universal cultural condition.

yes yes. but the way it's been arrived at results in
...
different abilities of awareness towards the criteria

now i kind of believe that nowadays, while less critical, the post-modernism of places who have skipped or fast-forwarded some of the stages or all of modernism, is much more charged and dynamic to the cynical post-modernism of the west. it would be nice to actually have some new terms (ideally not invented by western academics) to describe the situation.

____

suck all the life out of the original and and don't add anything at all.

hey, change ethnic standpoints and it's EXACTLY like saying the same about the beatles and little richard. especially now that we can see both in retrospect.
it is damn exactly as saying the same about kanji or electronics or buddhist temples.

now i kind of understand where your personal sensitivities lie so we can't quite discuss wether there is worthy, genuine lyrical content in masayoshi yamazaki's songs but i thought you can at least tell the living from the dead. F.Q.A. is seriously authentic shit - important cultural product but anyway....

more pakuri and stuff.

first cd i bought in japan was for some reason a ¥10 bargain box mini single by Penicilin (visual band i think). The b-side had them do a cover of this song 'the flame' that this dude richard marx (no relation?) sung in the 80s or 90s. sickly song right? now the penicilin version kind of spun me out because it de-territorialized the song to the point where it actually sounded really cool. I guess the production was Suede inspired, who were big in japan at the time, and the whole sickening pathos was turned into something intellectually cool, conceptual. it forced me to actually go back to Suede, a band who i'd resisted liking, and kind of see, and appreciate what they do not for the rather crappy songs but that cool, subtle gap they had between content and delivery.

recently i came across an mp3 of david sylvian from a while ago singing a song in japanese and you' hardly know it's him and not someone like mr. children or something more lame like a ballad by tube or so. now this's again way cool. here's the guy who had such a profound impact on japanese pop music actually learning something himself rather than waving his dick. bowie pretty much did the same but things were a bit cruder (& dorfmeister) in his time.

yes yes. but the way it's been arrived at results in

Well, no. To borrow from David Harvey, Postmodernism is the logic of late capitalism, and Japan adopted the market values of capitalism wholesale without any real opposition (other than "traditional" values that were completely delegitimized after the war.)

hey, change ethnic standpoints and it's EXACTLY like saying the same about the beatles and little richard

Well, no. The Beatles did add something to the R&R template, especially in the later years. They would "cover" classic R&R, and would borrow conventions, but their most well-loved songs do not specifically borrow note-for-note from old songs. (And when they borrowed lyrics a la "Come Together," they got caught and sued.)

And again, I'm not against the "Tommy February 6" concept as much as the laziness of a "Sabotage" borrowing. TomFeb6 is a relatively original offering from Jpop, and I am only being bitchy because her standard level of work is very high.

now the penicilin version kind of spun me out because it de-territorialized the song to the point where it actually sounded really cool.

A cover is not pakuri. Weird Al isn't pakuri either. It's when you claim it as "original" that it moves into pakuri land.

here's the guy who had such a profound impact on japanese pop music actually learning something himself rather than waving his dick.

Man, I wonder what it'd be like to write and sing a song in Japanese!

I agree with marxy here. When I saw that TommyF video I just thought, "As if the videos here couldn't get any worse..."

Man, I wonder what it'd be like to write and sing a song in Japanese!

that really wasn't the point.

A cover is not pakuri.

neither was this. what's life behind the bulletproof glass like?

it was about attitude and about trying in vain to open the discussion a bit.

Postmodernism is the logic of late capitalism, and Japan adopted the market values of capitalism wholesale without any real opposition (other than "traditional" values that were completely delegitimized after the war.

so why insnit working as it should??

again you seem to talk as if japan only 'started' 100 yeasr ago or so. Edo had a huge booming economy and was a metropolis by any standards before black ships came.

laziness of a "Sabotage" borrowing.

beats me how you call it laziness (ok i'll play by your rules) when you surely do know how much work and energy and selection criteria usually goes into this kind of thing (in japan).

havn't seen it but really isnit somewhat more rewarding (on an immediate level at least) watching this video than the museum piece beastie boys one for the n00th time?

if we said they 'covered' the video would it be more acceptable?

the criteria we have are terribly narrow. would milly vanili have been a sham if there existed at the time a cultural form, of good looking guys who just dance and pose to someone else's background singing - somewhere between modeling and dancing - both accepted categories.

I can hardly imagine a more "dick-waving" turn of phrase than accusing someone else of "waving their dick", while you claim to have special access to some kind of truth.

It sounds like the clip was a bit short to be pakuri, more like a (would-be) sly reference that just didn't hit the mark. It's funny that marxy is saying that if the whole video had been a rip off of sabotage, it wouldn't be pakuri, but the 5 second clip is.
Call the crime what it is; this was just lame video-making.

again you seem to talk as if japan only 'started' 100 yeasr ago or so. Edo had a huge booming economy and was a metropolis by any standards before black ships came.

Japan had a commercialism, but it would be a stretch to say it really had "capitalism" or postmodernism forming "late capitalism" back in the Edo period. The state of the economy in the Edo period helped Japan quickly modernize, but it wasn't capitalism in itself.

if we said they 'covered' the video would it be more acceptable?

To cover it though would be to do a "TomFeb6" version of it, no do a shot-for-shot reshoot.

would milly vanili have been a sham if there existed at the time a cultural form, of good looking guys who just dance and pose to someone else's background singing - somewhere between modeling and dancing - both accepted categories.

Milli Vanilli were huge stars, and only fell from grace because they claimed to be singing thier own songs, when they really weren't. If they had started as a lip sync act, they would not have been such a disaster.

i can't match the ranting above - so it's deliberately ideas lazy, badly edited, and somehow we would all be on the tf6 joke by now and not care, because irony is dead. it's merely amusing that the whole video makes no sense, while tommy gets drunker on fake swigs from her flask.

if it's possible, i think this song is getting a bit darker in comparison to her other work. or maybe i'm wacked out from watching too many episodes of parakiss in a row.

Sorry Marxy but you are beginning to talk out your ass here by tacking the p-word onto capitalism. Also Japan adopted the market values of capitalism wholesale and it would be a stretch to say it really had "capitalism" or postmodernism forming "late capitalism" back in the Edo period. Sweep with a big broom lately? Perhaps you missed the Dojima rice futures trading of 1730?

I challenge the to define your terms!

chris, hey, we incidentally seem to agree again !!

Knock off the buddy-buddy stuff, guys!

Perhaps you missed the Dojima rice futures trading of 1730?

Is this "a market" or "Capitalism"? Would you go as far as to say that the Tokugawa economic system was a capitalist system or was it just a proto-capitalist system?

Again, if we're talking about postmodernity as the accompanying cultural changes to late, post-industrial capitalism, then it doesn't matter much what happened in Edo. The Tokugawa system's stable economic growth (with low population increases) and development of urban markets helped Japan move into a modern capitalist system, but I'm not sure why you would directly link Edo to "postmodernism."

The point trying to be made here by the opposing team is something like "pakuri and other postmodern-esque artistic practices are culturally informed from a long tradition" and not recent phenomena caused by a specific economic/media system. I think it's very difficult to somehow state that pakuri is widely accepted in Japan, seeing that you'll find Japanese people railing against it throughout the last 50 years of pop music. Most of its practice is done by artists under the protection of their respective companies.

Claiming that a big artist is "pakkutting" someone else sells magazines, if the magazine has the clout to break ranks and publish such a thing. If Japanese people all accepted 盗用　and pakuri as a ingrained cultural principle, no one would care. The reason it's more widespread in Japan is that for a long time, there was no real fear of reprecussions.

Ach! Marxy, you're close to exposing yourself as a possible (Marius B.) Jansenist now! Or a tasty (Ronald) doria... (I jest)

Without seeing the video, I feel more drawn to Momus' line here. It would be helpful when these issues are discussed if you could link to the actual video, unless there's some link here I'm too blind to notice. Otherwise, you're arguing from a position of distinct privilege. If there's really no linkable evidence available, then say so. Onegai!

Marxy, I cant take you seriously if you discuss matters of finance and economics using the soft skulled p-word unless you define your terms.

It is however verifyable fact that a rice futures market (with about equal levels of regulation as futures markets today) existed in Osaka from 1730. Just as verifyable is the existance in the Edo era of money lenders, variable interest rates, and changes in currency valuation (the Tokugawa Shogunate varied the ammount of gold in currency as a crude form of monetary policy or simply out of lack of government reserves) as well as a supply/demand driven market economy for a variety of commodities and goods. There is even some evidence that the practice of hedging risk was a part of large wholesale contracts. If you dig a bit deeper there was even a form of a military industrial complex developing around the gunsmiths of Sakae in the 16th century.

Given the existance of so many "capitalist" business practices, which part of the existance of Capitalism are you denying during this period?

Marxy said:
...when I (and other Japanese people)

Careful now!

While I've only seen a 36sec excerpt of the video (at http://www.sonymusic.co.jp/Music/Info/Tommyfebruary6/release/index.html) I think in this case you're way off base.

It comes across as a cute girl in her bedroom dreaming of boys like the guys in Sabotage -- dreaming of being in the video with them. Aren't the inset heart-shaped clips of the cops actually from the original video? Maybe Sony asked Toshiba-EMI's permission for the whole thing?

gee, i was going to write a serious entry then watched the 36sec excerpt and changed my mind.
helloo!

I just rewatched the whole video, and the "stars" link to the 2 cops is the only narrative connection between the two parts. And it feels tacked on.

Yes, we're debating the definitions of "capitalism" as a way to gauge whether or not the Tommy February 6 video is any good. Congratulations, everybody.

I do *like* the fact that Tommy doesn't hide the fact that she's a terrible actress, or perhaps, she is so skilled that she is able to fake being a terrible actress.

But is it capitalism that makes her take those frequent swigs from her hip-flask? And if so, is it Edo-period Japanese capitalism or postmodern global capitalism? What's in there, sake or Jim Beam?

this debate really seems absurd to me for many reasons, which i think is obvious to the debaters as well, but i guess i'm wondering what kind of people are supposed to take what out of this discussion? it is not so much pop sociology as indie-pop sociology... & fairly obscure as well. This feeling comes from the use of this word "Pakuri", what the hell is Pakuri?

& while i love the DX-7 & used to play one alot when i was a lad, it's not exactly a great descriptor right?

If you read the thread, you'll find a pretty clear definition of pakuri. (I said "clear", not "sane".)

I watched the whole video and I wasn't bothered by the borrowing/stealing/cultural appropriation/fill-in-the-blank. Actually I was intrigued with the fact that TommyF6 spends a great deal of the video staggering around what looks like a giant tissue box, acting plastered. The camera sorta hovers around her and doesn't cut to make her seem more "active". Even the attempts to look like the Sabotage video are drunken and sloppy, which is funny to me. If you're going to steal outright, you'd be copying the fast pace, the boys' play-fighting, etc. But Tommy is in love with the two cops (I guess), eats a donut, and looks good in those slacks. Like the sudden exploding head in At The Bus Stop (or was it the other early single), the video has enough head-scratching moments for me not to get too het up about.

So I'm with Momus on this one.

the indie-pop edo hedge club.

I like that disagreeing with me is automatically "being with Momus on this one."

What's in there, sake or Jim Beam?

Good question!

If we want to talk about Western pakuri, there's always the pure shit cover of "these boots were made for walking" "by" Jessica Simpson. Ugh, just thinking about it makes me want to stab my ears out.

I like that disagreeing with marxy means being with momus too. It's like if mom says no, dad says yes.

Were it not for the weirdos (no offense) who hang out here and defend things from the accusation, would marxy really be interested in "pakuri" at all? It seems well outside the normal realm of discussion around here (even if it did get around to semantics and western ideologies a.p.u.).
Is there something I'm missing? orange range lifting note sequences and tf6 paying dubious homage really don't seem controversial without forcing the issue.

Marxy and I are usually saying exactly the same things about Japan, just with different value judgements tacked on at the end. He calls it pakuri, I call it pomo, but we both accept that it's going on.

tf6 paying dubious homage really don't seem controversial without forcing the issue.

Well, I used the word pakuri here when I didn't really mean it.

He calls it pakuri, I call it pomo

And the Japanese call it pakuri.

But do they mean it any more than you do?

When I want to know what's going on in the world, I always listen to Malcolm McLaren. He's been on top of it all. For example, um, Bow Wow Wow.

Thing about McLaren is, he makes being wrong so much more interesting than being right. What we need in this world is for more people to be wrong about stuff... like Marxy here.

I'll take Brian Eno over Malcolm "I Invented the Sex Pistols 30 Years Ago" McLaren, thanks.

Hrm.. Momus, McLaren, both relevant to pop music decades ago

I wonder what Tommy herself would think of all this?
I can only think it would be some shrugs.
Does anybody think that TommyHeavenly6 sounds like Kelly Clarkson? In a good way???

The bit at the beginning looks like a really bad rehearsal. I didn't think it was supposed to be about anything at all.

But I don't care what she does, because I love her.

Yeah, I love her too! Tommy is the best.

I finally saw the video today, and I think I am fine with the laziness. It's just Tommy! You can't hold her too accountable for the contents of the video, anyhow, because she was obviously drunk, right.