wow, wikipedia doesn't mention gramps. If this is not a case for the deft pen (and occasionally textbooky writing style) of marxy, I don't know what is.

Well, his grampa Class A War Criminal Nobusuke Kishi also turned out to be Prime Minister, natch.

A little deja vu from this article I just read:

"The major debate among Japanese Marxists during the 1st half of the 20th century dealt with the nature of Japanese society—was it feudal or capitalist? A great deal depended on the answer, including the kind of revolution (democratic capitalist or socialist) that one considered necessary."

http://www.nyu.edu/projects/ollman/docs/yakuza.php

(Check out the site, Ollman also has things to say about マルバツ主義 exam culture.)

And by the way, did you know that FM Aso "one nation, one civilization, one language, one culture, one race" Taro's family more or less owned slaves?

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=17&ItemID=10187

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=7338

[obligatory knee-jerk comparison to the United States follows]

Of course, we're also still waiting for an apology for Hiroshima/Nagasaki/Tokyo firebombing from the United States. Atrocities for which, following Marxy's line of reasoning, the US populace should shoulder more blame (assuming it is a "true" bourgeois democracy)...

Japanese Wikipedia says Aso is a Christian (though he worships annually at Yasukuni), and my man's bling comes straight from Sierra Leone! A real O.G., Cortez steelo...

Of course, we're also still waiting for an apology for Hiroshima/Nagasaki/Tokyo firebombing from the United States.

These aren't my rules, but you only apologize if you 1) aggresively start the war and 2) lose. (Except for Vietnam and Iraq II...) Tokyo and Dresden were not particularly ethical or good or easliy defended, but they were revenge - and even the samurai code would not complain with that. The atomic bombings are another can of worms.

Interesting on the slave links. One good aspect of Japanese Imperialism was that they freed the slaves in Korea. You never hear anyone talk about that.

Marxy, could you provide some documentation about Japanese Imperialism freeing Korean slaves? Or were you joking?

On a similar note, is Aso right about the Japanese having promoted the diffusion of hangul? I thought colonial language policy was to force Koreans/Taiwanese/Okinawans/etc to use Japanese?

Ironically, Japanese Imperialists often had to use English to communicate with their new subjects during the Pacific War, see the experience of the recently deceased Pramoedya Ananta Toer in Indonesia. Let's see that on an NOVA commercial:　戦場の英会話、ミスター・ローレンス！

Marxy, could you provide some documentation about Japanese Imperialism freeing Korean slaves?

I have always learned that Japan abolished the slave system in Korea upon annexation. They did the same in Taiwan.

OK, I'm going to stop using the name "guest" to post here- this is getting positively schizophrenic! You folks are right about the abolishment of slavery in Korea and Taiwan by Japan. I suppose I should do my own digging anyway...

Germany 1 - Japan 0, right?

all right in soccer and the like. a whole different set of circumstances, the comparison, efficient as it seems everytime it's used, is absurd.

on a tangent : i happened to end up at a monsters of rock festival at the site of the 1934 rally as a teenager and it was more disturbing than anything i can imagine ever going on at yasukuni.

i think it was jon bon jovi playing hitler's part

it was more disturbing than anything i can imagine ever going on at yasukuni.

You say this without hyperbole, correct?

the comparison, efficient as it seems everytime it's used, is absurd.

Yeah, why would we compare the two major Axis powers who both waged expansionist military campaigns in their respective regions?? Seems unbelievably absurd in hindsight.

Maybe comparing the Rape of Nanking to the Holocaust is not totally right, but comparing two major countries provoking huge scale wars ALLIED to each other? You're going to have to break the Alin-rule and actually explain why it is absurd, before I myself believe in your exasperation.

Is the idea that if the Germans had not committed genocide, the Germans would not have needed to be apologetic? Or do you actually believe that Japanese military aggression was a part of some anti-Western Imperialist crusade? Or does it not "count" if you invade "backwards" countries instead of France?

I certainly wouldn't expect the Japanese to express guilt for decisions they did not make – I would, however, ask them to acknowledge previous wartime actions as being bellicose, and therein unworthy of veneration or repetition.

Even a simple, "what a waste – let’s not do that again", would suffice.

Maybe comparing the Rape of Nanking to the Holocaust is not totally right, but comparing two major countries provoking huge scale wars ALLIED to each other? You're going to have to break the Alin-rule and actually explain why it is absurd, before I myself believe in your exasperation

Wait right there you truculent American! It is a known fact that Germany (and to some extent Japan) was provoked to provoke a war by we all know who the culprits are. And this is why they didn't repeat the formula after the WWII was over.

Wouldn't it be nice if we lived in world in which both Germany and Japan both apologised for war crimes while at the same time America and Britain also acknowledged they were at fault?

Ultimately the problem with the Nippo-Germanic war time brutality is that it was too honest; if you really want to be a bully brute, you've got to be dodgy... just like the USA and UK.

right, aside from dzima's stinking tub of ahistorical goat innards which aint even facts that could be wrong yet, and choosing to bypass the traditional marxy vs alin monster mash, lemme clear my throat cuz I got somethin to say.

(one lung cookie later)

Marxy, this here reads like part of the "vast left wing conspiracy" trope. Now I knows that these days amongst thinkin fellas patriotism has a bad name, but I want to come out right now and say "whats wrong with loving your country/heritage?" Me myself, I aint ashamed to say that I am a patriotic person. I love the land and culture that led up to my birth. I love it warts and all (here I concede a point to you which I will expand upon in a bit). Warts and all includes slavery and native american genocide, invasion of here and there, etc. etc. etc. Warts and all also includes the fine tradition of "voting the bastards out", it has nothing to do with "my country right or wrong".

Now see I'm sure those of you who live here have encoutered the question "do you like living in japan?" or some variant thereof. I ask it right back cuz I'm curious as to the range of replies. As a sweeping generalization, most younguns here (under 40) DONT like or love Japan and I've heard the phrase "I hate being Japanese" on more than a handfull of occasions. Now there could be a million reasons for this which have nothing to do with this topic but when I try and dig further on the matter with folks I know, it seems to me that mostly they have been taught to have an ill feeling about the nation without a particular reason or set of reasons. This is probably a goood point to go ahead and concede to marxy that perhaps patriotism would be dandy with a likkle more strictness in the recent history lessons.

Sure theres no doubt that there be historical links and blood ties between lots of current LDP bigwigs and the wartime government, but I'll give those guys one thing, they seem to have actually put some effort and discussion into how to define a very slippery word like patriotism in terms of a law requiring it. Why he hell do they need a law in the first place I asked myself, then remembered where I am and that the regular people get to be told what to officially believe.

So stripping aside what the neighbors think and who these men in power were born from, lemme ask you in all honesty whats wrong with patriotism?

>lemme ask you in all honesty whats wrong with patriotism?

bit of a flamebait-style question, but i'll bite..nothing wrong with liking your own country, so long as you dont use it to club minorities, invade other people's countries, cover up lies & deceit or to brainwash and/or otherwise distract your population..

this is of course how it is usually used, so a more relevant question might be "in all honesty, what is really right with patriotism?"

Marxy,

The "political elite" have an ulterior motive to their actions, namely an amendment to Article 9. It's obvious posturing.

Argue your history lessons, but the fact remains that the way US troop movement is going, to maintain the stability that Asia has enjoyed for so many years, things will have to change. The US and the LDP seem to believe that Japan must become more militaristic. It breaks my heart, but I tend to agree.

It pains me that much of this new patriotism comes at the expense of massive ignorance, however the question I have is this: is that a bad thing?

also: does an alternative exist?

OT: Marxy, is there an email address where you can be reached? I have a question, and I couldn't find anything on the site.

If your average Japanese teenager could spout back Ienaga Saburo on demand, there would not be a problem ...

Have you ever read his memoir? I can't remember much from it (it was a few years back) but I remember being very impressed by his in-depth account of his early (high school) intellectual development, especially in choosing neo-Kantianism over Marxism.

I think the problem with the wa ga kuni no ai is the meaning of wa ga kuni. Wondering who the implied "we" is is a fine place to start. They're not encouraging love of "Japan", but of "our country", complete with the excluded "they".

I'm much more disturbed by the "kuni" portion than the "wa ga" portion though.

At what point can this love of "country" be used as a viable basis for any decision? Where can we draw the line between something that is and isn't Japanese? Who could possibly benefit from drawing this line but those who seek to use nationalism for their own gain?
It's the flag burning amendment for Japan. There's absolutely no shortage of love for Japan amongst the Japanese.

just finished reading chris b's words.... I gotta say my experience is exactly the opposite of yours. The only people I've ever encountered who werent quite pleased to be Japanese were those who were deliberately seeking out the company of a gaijin. Students and teachers in school, city hall staff members, virtually anyone who has never asked me to teach them english, none of these people ever complain about Japan.
Foreigners have a tendency to attract people who want to detatch themselves from Japan (among other types).

I do not have a problem with "patriotism" in general, although like that short blurb in "Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs," I'm not sure I find patriotism to be the most important quality in my judgment of human character. But the point I am trying to make is that the people trying to introduce patriotism - much like the US - are also trying to gloss over dirty chapters of history. Very few stand up for a "warts-and-all patriotism" that says "we love our country DESPITE of all these bad things."

It is a known fact that Germany (and to some extent Japan) was provoked to provoke a war by we all know who the culprits are.

I am not sure if you are joking.

For the record, I have always had deep concerns against American foreign policy (especially CIA covert action) for the last 50 years and have been against the current war in Iraq. That being said, I am not sure I still equate American propping up of "friendly governments" with Nazi Germany - although that trope is popular these days.

The counterargument here seems to be: the US is as bad as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, so Japan should not have to apologize. But the US is not the one looking for apology: it's China and Korea, and to a lesser extent, the rest of Asia.

OT: Marxy, is there an email address where you can be reached?

I am always marxy [at mark] neomarxisme.com

every ethnic group has done something bad to some other ethnic group at some point in time in history. You should only be suspicious of those that are looking for apologies.

why would we compare the two major Axis powers

marxy. told you it's the axis of evil syndrome.

and actually explain why it is absurd, before I myself believe in your exasperation.

it's actually not absurd at all provided you're doing it from a matematician-God-like-meta position. (indeed, Iran and North Korea are virtually identical, right?)

the exchange above between chris and nate was highly enjoyable and refreshing. thanks guys. i'm more with nate on that point and i'm inclined to think (excuse my antropologism) even the more extreme cases of 'i hate japan', if not straight tatemae put out to the foreigner, are more often than not part of an ambiguous sense of 'being japanese' itself. (this is surely true of anyone of any country, the nuances, as often the case, are slightly different in japan's case)

You say this without hyperbole, correct?

absolutely. a rationalization would probably go along momus' rock-horror theories but i was too young at the time to rationalize, just found it totaly freaky.

Alin, I find your love to be like "bad medicine" but bad medicine is what I need.

haha

I am not sure I still equate American propping up of "friendly governments" with Nazi Germany

Go and tell that to the families of all people who were tortured or murdered in the Middle East, Latin America and elsewhere.

I don't want to sound like Fidel Castro here but, bloody hell, it is difficult to hear a white (anglo?) man who doesn't sound patronising when it comes to these issues.

dzima: you do of course realize you are approaching a slippery slope, right? Look far enough back in history and everyone has blood on their hands. That dont make nothin right but fer me anyways it washes out that damn spot of liberal guilt.

Look far enough back in history and everyone has blood on their hands.

Chris, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

I was basically criticising Marxy for taking the 'holier than thou' approach by saying something like 'Germany and Japan are 100% at fault for all tragedies that happen in before and during WWII'. It sounds like our boy has wagged his History classes at school...

but dzima your assertion that germany and japan were "forced" into delaring war is about as appologist as it comes. That sorta stuff aint even in the same county as facts.

Marxy said: ...an electorate bent on voting in the Yasukuni Shriners?

Yasukuni Shriners? Aren't those the guys driving the funny little cars on the cover of the Dead Kennedys' "Frankenchrist?" They seem harmless enough! Though I guess they are Freemasons...

It was over 60 years ago, you idiot.

We all know that all sanctions and penalties imposed on Germany after WWI were one of the various causes of WWII. That's what I'm referring to.

And since Commodore Perry, Japan has always had an inferiority complex towards the white man which made go on a ruthless path of "catching up". Again, it's one of several causes for the Pacific War. I don't thing I'm being that unreasonable or apologist for saying that.

No one has the right to claim "I'm right, you're wrong" about war crimes, after all the culprits are always the ones who are not in charge.

I understand that John Wayne Gacy's parents were not perfectly loving and kind as well. Considering that, it's really hypocritical for any one of us to consider ourselves less guilty when we make up excuses for not turning in our homework.

Saying that Japan and Germany's international predicament had a connection to their militarization is fine, but it implies nothing further. Otherwise you might as well count some of the other international situations that led them that way and toss some of the blame to Poland and the other nearby nations for their lack of strong armies, and tender minded love of peace. Likewise to the non-nordic races for non-aryan races for underperforming by german standards, baiting them into believing in genetic superiority. It's not apologism, it's just among the reasons.

Yes, dzima, absolutely, the Shoa was provoked by those pesky French, and no one has the right to claim that for example Irving is wrong about war crimes. Go on, take as much rope as you need.

Good one, Neomarxists are now tagging me "pro-Aryan".

There are plenty of WWII films from the American point of view but I'd love see a film/films from the German/Japanese end of the story. It wouldn't have to be condensciding in tone but at least it would balance things out.

Americans come from world in which both Nazism and Communism are the end of the world. For the record, I of course do agree that Nazism is a bad idea and Communism a poor realised utopia but Capitalism/Democracy don't cut it for me (two parties? And they both stand for the same values? And no one bothers to vote? Business is the end of it all?)

Having seen how a poor country with an American style brutal capitalist system works, I can't help but feel very skeptical about it.

(for the record again, I'm just playing the sophist here and you can all platonise about Democracy)

It was over 60 years ago, you idiot.

The wit and wisdom of Sho, ladies and gentlemen.

Go and tell that to the families of all people who were tortured or murdered in the Middle East, Latin America and elsewhere.

Okay, well as an informed American, who probably knows more about CIA covert action than you do (and is certainly more paranoid about the CIA than you could ever hope to be), I feel a certain sense of guilt and disgust at my own country's actions. And if I were to meet a Central American whose family was killed for the interests of the United Fruit Company, I would be apologetic and sympathetic.

I am not sure why I am so evil for thinking that a similar Japanese attitude towards the past would be classy.

dzima, I think you also miss that we are indeed taught in American high schools that the treaty of versailles had a lot to do with the collapse of the weimar republic. Granted, we don't learn shit about japan at that level, but Germany is given a pretty fair shake, and rehabilitation of both countries is given precedence in our textbooks.

no one has called you pro-aryan and none of the americans here is going to stand up and salute the cia for its global misdeeds. but equivocating the good neighbor policy with the vernigchtungsbefehl just isn't kosher.

the "government sponsored murder is govenment sponsored murder is government sponsored murder" line may be reasonable when comparing the policies of israel and the states, but were talking about the holocaust here.

that first g in vernichtungsbefehl doesnt belong there.

Poland and the other nearby nations ... tender minded love of peace

gee, i hate the smell of napalm in the morning.
one more go. nate, it was you who who described the poles (or was it chechs) just a week or so back as somewhat proud of their belicious neighbours' deed 60 years ago - for goodness sake you acrobats.

you'd probably have to go further back than the weimar republic to see that the stuff is linked. i'm no historian but while the greater colonial powers were getting their chunks of lebensraum commiting the inncidental massacre, even odd genocide here and there, germany , a bit late at the orgy started to device their own , initially , much more modest plans. etc etc what is this fascination with nazis here anyway?

That dont make nothin right but fer me anyways it washes out that damn spot of liberal guilt.

the young liberal's shikataganai deshou ,

man, I so wanted to grumble at alin for misreading irony, but it seems that marxy left the gaping contradiciton...

"And if I were to meet a Central American whose family was killed for the interests of the United Fruit Company, I would be apologetic and sympathetic." Likewise, few Japanese individuals would begrudge the survivors or Nanking. Youre talking about governmental stances here. America's current goverment hasn't exactly extended an apology or even olive branch toward our fellow western-hemispherians.
The good taste of the individual and the policies he implicitly approves don't really have so much in common as you seem to imply.

eh, why hold back.
Aliiiiin... the existence of certain elements in contemporary Poland has relatively little to do with the big picture of their defensive capabilities in the immediate lead up to invasion... but my point this time was ironic. I wasn't actually accusing Poland of baiting germany into invading by being weak.

Good point.

On the "Youre talking about governmental stances here. America's current goverment hasn't exactly extended an apology or even olive branch toward our fellow western-hemispherians."

Dzima said: "There are plenty of WWII films from the American point of view but I'd love see a film/films from the German/Japanese end of the story. It wouldn't have to be condensciding in tone but at least it would balance things out."

It would only balance out if you assume that there are two and only two sides to the WWII story: Allied propaganda and Axis propaganda. How impoverished our understanding would be if we only considered the dominant metanarrative and the next runner-up (that means you, Clint Eastwood).

I am not sure why I am so evil for thinking that a similar Japanese attitude towards the past would be classy.

I'm declaring war on Evel Knievel Marxy.

The irony of it all is that I have asked my Chinese friends and acquaintances whether they are mad at Japan for war atrocities et al. and so far I've got one "still mad at Japan" out of 7 people. But the fact that they all have higher education which makes me think about all those people who attack the Japanese Embassy and Japanese businesses in mainland China as being very poor uninformed people which makes them easy target to become followers of a central government planted conspiracy theory.

Of course Japan should apologise but maybe their counterparts are demanding a little more than that.

after seeing this news item, I'm wondering if perhaps I shouldntabeen qutie so quick on the draw over this one.

dzima, theres plenty of japanese films about the pacific war, just head on down to your local tsutaya. And about parties, most democracies have plenty of parties, even the USofA has a number to choose from. One of the things I loved about voting in NYC was the fact that there were three communist parties, a right to life party, a zionist party and independants by the barrelful. So wherever country you have a passport from, do you vote?

Also how many appologies are enough? How much more can be demanded when reparations aplenty have been paid and all scores officially settled by treaty? When will the rabble rousing communist leaders STFU? Enquiring minds want to know!

While were blaming the weak, why not blame those people and governments who just couldnt manage to stand up to the CIA? Oh nevermind...

alin, perhaps I agree with you. Young people should be enthuziastically lefty. Youth is the best time to make mistakes after all and its good that someone balances out crotchety old farts like me.

After the last election, I tried to order a tshirt that said, "I bet you vote next time hippie" but alas! they wouldnt ship overseas... Thats when I realized that the people runnng the site were probably closet hippies with no natural born drive towards capitalism.

dzima: Perhaps educated people are generally less likely to seek revenge and bear grudges? Perhaps the educated--and as a result more prosperous--do not seek war?

Relative drop in prosperity as the leading cause for war and aggression? I'd say so.

But maybe I'm just bitter, coming from a Jewish family who bore the brunt of both Nazi and Communist persecution for two generations. On the other hand, I have my own guilt and blame to bear as an Israeli citizen.

Maybe that's why I'm economically on the "right" and socially on the "left".

Rather than being apologetic, I tend to take the post-Holocaust principle to heart: Never Forget. So I prefer to plan and act to prevent the repetition of such acts, than dwell on acts committed. Apologies don't revive the dead, return hostages, or recover dignity.

I profess only to-- Never Forget.

What I think is missed in these discussions is the fundamentally nationalist principle of apologizing AS a nation, which lumps individuals responsible individually for acts of brutality and mayhem,with the worker in the factor producing munitions, the housewives sending children to school during bombing raids etc. and all their descendants. It is completely against a liberatory perspective to demand an apology from an individual as a member of a national collective. Instead I think it is much more important to look at the socialization of the nationalisms that we are subsumed within and seek to produce ourselves as individuals against that national identity.

The German example is a case in point. In Germany now you have most of the left and the entire right united with the Vatican under the lie that a 'clique of power-mongers herded and intimidated the german people' into the atrocities of the Shoa and Germany's expansionist imperialism. This has been the important outcome of 60 odd years in which the German identity had to be painstakedly reconstructed, brushed off and brushed up in order for Germany to be a force again in the post-USSR world. Integral to the process has been 'I as a German apologize to you as a Serb, a Czech, a Jew' inculcated in a particular way, not as analysis of the particular history of German nationalism (and its crux in anti-semitism) or a general deconstruction of the process of national identity, but as an aufheben (to be hegelian) of that national identity.

Opposed to this have been the anti-german communists and left in Germany which have at various levels critiqued since 1989 the 'German identity' after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The initial work was perhaps the most incisive and brilliant, some of which is translated into English (Male Fantasies by Klaus Theweleit is a particularly brilliant example), the critique branching into support for the United States after September 11th and solidarity with Israel since the second intifada (and actually the Gulf War).

What does the Japanese revolutionary movement or left have to show for all its critiques? Yes, tenno-ism is bad (although even this can hardly be spoken anymore!) and yes the war was bad, but where is the critique of 'Japanese-ness' as a socialization? Certainly Robin Gill wrote his own, but he's a foreigner. Yes we see the critique embodied in all the Japanese that leave the islands for their own better lives, but where in the center of it all is nihonjin-ron critiqued as domination and the most important link in the passivization of the populace? Virtually nowhere! Where was the opposition to the uyoku that marched through a Korean and Chinese neighborhood in Tokyo this month? Non-existent because people want those marches to happen.

The movement for universal emancipation communism doesn't have a prayer in Japan until people here realize that Korea is only 100 km off the coast, that the ocean borders are a sick figment created for factories on one side and the engineers and white collars on the other. Takeshima could be turned from a pissing contest into a waystation for travelers navigating the seas towards the Korean coast, destroying their socializations. The 38th parallel is nothing compared to the 133rd vertical!