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May 5, 2005

Golden Interview Week: No. 7 - Justin Hall

justin.jpgJustin Hall was essentially the world's first blogger. The guy was on the Net so early that his own personal page is improbably located at links.net. (More biographical information can be found at the "Justin Hall" Wikipedia entry.) He is currently is getting a MFA in Interactive Media at USC.

1) As a trail-blazing pioneer who set up house early in cyberspace, what's been the biggest surprise to you in the development of the Net?

Early on I was invested in personalizing the space. Both for myself, and seeing other people join me there. It was a sort of party - I was having fun, but it felt slightly lonely at first. I thought the party of the internet would be more fun if there was more diversity, more voices, more participants. So I've been thrilled and delighted to see the way that people have taken to the internet. Home Pages, Diary Sites, and now Weblogs, and whatever's next. I was sort of afraid that the internet would be completely colonized by commercial and professional media interests, but instead there seems to be this professional-amateur information middle class developing where people use weblogs to pose themselves as experts, and it actually works, which i think is wonderful. There's too much information in the world, and we need people to organize it and share it together.

And all the fifteen year old kids who just have blogs, because, well, just because, why not? I love that. And I'm not sure I would have predicted it.

2) A huge part of what we talk about on the Internet is the Internet itself. I'm not old enough to remember the begining of TV, but I doubt they had shows all about TV. Do you think this meta-netting netting is going to go on forever or is it just a temporary stage?

Over time I think the technology might become more transparent, such that architecture will be less of a commonplace debate, and more up to specialists. That's already begun to happen - the technological fluency required to publish online goes down, so fewer people write about technology standards for online publishing. And they write about their travels or their cooking, so hurrah.

But think, if you go to a party, which is arguably a delivery means for the medium of people, and socializing, often people talk about other people. There's a tendency to reflect on the medium you are in. Books are often about books, or about the experience of being in text. Or being in the mind as the mind is enshrined or explored in text. So the netting and meta-netting are part of a global effort at this time to understand what this experience is, of writing little bits of digital text and passing them around and stringing them to other people's bits of text. It's a literacy thing. And I think it's healthy - because people are both producers and consumers, because Internets have users and not watchers, there's more debate, more meta-talk required. So I'm okay with that.

At times it does get a bit circular, redundant, navel-gazing for a small group of seemingly homogenous people. At those times I'm profoundly glad when I see someone make a bridge to a new subject, or a new geographical area, or a perspective outside of the technological self-referential group that has founded popular internet culture. And that's happening more and more, as the tech gets easier, more appealing and more accessible, and as people get more literate, more bored by linear/broadcast media, and more eager to share their own media.

3) Now looking back on it, did putting your entire personal life online for a decade have a net positive, neutral, or negative effect on your life?

I look at the circumstances of my life now, between my work and my personal life, and I enjoy what I have around me. Whether that's acclimation or optimism or delusion, it's hard to judge from within this personal sphere. It mostly works for me.

It's hard to judge the net effects of anything like that. There were definite tradeoffs. I spent so much time so fervently believing in what I was doing, plumbing the depths of that online oversharing, that I'm just now maybe beginning to get some perspective.

I could say that the internet is a different place now, rather than when I started. I began publishing when it felt more like a nerdy club. I wanted to see that change; and it has changed, and part of that change is that it's no longer quite the "safe space" that it might have been. There's more diversity, so more people to react poorly or inappropriately to gestures of friendship issued to the internet public. But trust still rules the day, I think - there's examples of people doing precisely what I did, in their own ways, and they seem to be finding a rich stimulating life out of that.

The main takeaway from my life lead in public, online? Correspondence with other searchers. People who found me because they were looking for meaning or self or whatever I was looking for. I value that lack of isolation I felt as I poured myself into my web pages. And, I like looking back at memories. Some are painful; most are funny and I want to rewrite them. Mostly I'm glad they are there; they amuse me and it's useful or entertaining to be able to refer to them.

I recently stopped publishing my life online. At least in the same kind of detail as I had been. I'm still not exactly sure why I did that, and what it means. There's the craft of writing and composing pages I miss; there's the self-expression I sometimes want to exercise. There's the relationships with other like-minds online I miss stoking. In their place? Maybe I'm more focused on my local personal relationships. The circles of people I have non-internet exclusive ties with. I'm not prepared to value one over the other. It's an experiment; something I felt inclined to do in time.

I suspect near-future internet literacy will involve striking a balance over personal expression online and that balance may involve striking out for one extreme or another as we go through different phases of our lives.

4) What led you to live in Japan, and from your experience there, where do you see them fitting into the Internet picture?

Couple of reasons I moved to Japan: one, I think I was looking for a change, some stimulation, some change of scene. I visited Japan for a video game trade show and I found it profoundly stimulating. So much visual culture, so tightly packed with media and people.

Then as I began to look into the language, I realized that there was a communication challenge there for me. If I think of myself as a communicator, someone who listens and interprets and retells, then I want to understand different modes of communication. I believed that moving to Japan, losing my ability to read and write and express in the world around me, it would help me see essential human communication characteristics. I would have to rely on the basics and relearn human expression. Japan was a fairly easy place to do that, because it was very technology-friendly, which was a sort of language I understood, and it was something I could parlay into freelance article gigs to buy my ramen and ryokan bills.

Also, it's safe, at least muggings-wise. I could wander around and feel like I wasn't going to get shot or looted really. But it was daunting in ways I didn't expect - there was a lot of personal distance established, even in those overcrowded situations. I felt steadily alienated in these small ways and as a person craving intimacy and intensity in human contacts, that drove me insane. Sometimes.

So it sort of mirrored my internet life I guess - I was most often alone, pondering and wandering. And I would see people around me who seemed to be culturally aligned with me; video gamers, hipsters, fashionistas, artists, sex explorers, travelers, whatever. I wasn't making a profound connection with many of them; I couldn't approach them as I could in the more visceral, English-speaking America. Instead, there was a kind of silent information exchange that I think I'm still digesting. Japan taught me to observe and participate in silent social cues in a way that I never learned from the Midwest. Or the East or West coasts.

Speaking less personally, seeing all those folks who were deeply wedded to the internet, as the internet was 10 keys of a mobile phone and a small screen in their pocket, it gave me some foreshadowing: I think the Japanese experience of the internet as personal, portable, pedestrian (to quote Mizuko Ito's upcoming English-language essay collection on Japanese mobile life) - that experience is a sort of comfortable native internet experience for many people around the world. It's just not so widely available elsewhere yet.

So in Japan, I was seeing a place, a mode of being, a media environment I appreciated and felt kinship towards, and some distance too from that. I am still trying to fashion the techno-social circumstances I want to live in, and whatever I end up with will be undoubtedly informed by Japanese manners and customs.

5) Can you describe the grad school program you are currently attending?

In 2004 I enrolled in the "Interactive Media Division" at the University of Southern California's School of Cinema-Television. It's a 3 year MFA program, where I will be learning about making video games, mobile phone applications, and immersive media (like virtual reality). All this in the context of a large university and the oldest film school in the world. So there's traditional screen-based media understanding abounding: I just took a kick-ass class called Visual Expression. The teacher has written the book on breaking down the picture plane, any picture, to describe the ability to create or calm emotional intensity through "contrast and affinity" using visual elements like line, color, tone, shape, etc. It was a fascinating exercise in learning to look differently.

I want to take these screenwriting classes they have here that explore the formula of Hollywood storymaking. They can say, yep, page 90 of a script, minute 90 of a film, that's when the hero realizes he needs to improve himself. That kind of formula is so alien to my mode of production which has been much more haphazard. Working on the web starting in 1994 was a chance to make up any structure that would serve my recounting memory. That was delightful, but I'm eager for this program since it gives me a chance to experiment with new vocabularies. Because at the same time we can learn about traditional linear media making, at USC IMD, we're also forced to generate a steady stream of non-linear projects. So I've told thousands of small stories in hypertext on the web. But I've never made moving pieces in Flash. Or experimented with Zork-like Interactive Fiction tools. Or created a chat bot that can carry on a sort of conversation.

There's a million new tools out there for telling stories. And people are groping around, mostly adapting old things to the new mediums. You can argue that anyone can experiment with these things on their own; certainly I found freelance writing could support a fair amount of experimentation.

This time of focus on practice and learning new tools is a lucky time for me - a chance to see what other types of stories I want to tell. I mean, the core of the stories remains the same - what do I believe in? What excites or saddens me? But maybe there's important ways to touch people.

And I feel a bit of that charge I felt in the early days of the web - when I was worried about commercial colonization of the internet space. Today, video games are dominated by space marines and athletes. There's not a lot of alienated youth as protagonists. Or disenfranchised people sharing their experiences through interactivity. Video games offer a chance to enter someone else's mindset, where the player is encouraged to adapt their goals and solve their problems. Accordingly, the potential is great for video games to teach empathy, compassion and understanding.

So I'm hoping through my work in school to see how I can tell stories that are more engaging to me through moving characters onscreen.

I've been thinking a lot about the "native religious experiences of the internet" - wondering what kinds of sacred spaces and sacred texts would suit life online and life in virtual worlds. You can import the collected wisdom of the sages of the Middle East and the Ancient Orient to the online knowledge banks. But what kinds of symbols and stories and metaphors might suit online specifically?

After school is over? I have no idea. Someone suggested I could teach. I'm still not sure what I'd be useful to teach, except digital generalism and participation. The USC program I'm in has been funded by a large video game company, so there's some momentum/pressure to take a corporate job with a big video game company to help evolve the medium there way.

Truth be told, I think there's a shit-ton more excitement and gratification to be found in the independent interactive media cultures that are springing up worldwide. People hacking into videogames and starting to seed stranger stories. The success of Katamari Damacy is one testament to this - it's really a poem, a meditation on movement and living. And it's fired up a ton of imaginations. People want to be able to tell their stories and live their dreams onscreen.

The XBoxes and PlayStations of the world are still wedded to traditional packaged content - they're like interactivity broadcasters. My best hopes for a program like mine is to see those platforms, the medium of videogames, interactive media further cracked open for more mind-bending digital experiences from a million small producers, each trying to simulate their problems or recreate their dreams. We're a ways a way still, because of technology and funding and literacy, but I can start to see a broad culture of interactive participation taking shape and damn it's exciting!

Posted by marxy at May 5, 2005 8:05 AM

Comments

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

Thankyou very much for the great blog and a fantastic interview with Justin Hall; something that i have wanted to see for a long time, on both counts ;)

The one thing i would like to say (and excuse me for being rude) is; what's with the random [b]embolding[/b] of certain words on this blog? Surely you can trust your loyal readership to make their own conclusions by this point?

Posted by: Womble at May 6, 2005 4:11 AM

Good comment. I was just trying to find a way to break up the monotony of the text's visual appearance, but I got lazy/heavy-handed. I'll take them out since they're not really doing anything anyway.

Posted by: marxy at May 6, 2005 2:05 PM

give me a break. what a blowhard. you masturbate this prick like it is the cumshot to end all. He's done nothing NOTHING his entire life.

Not held a job, not made an honest day's wages, not done anything, except rub his dead dad's money all over himself. He's a prick. He will never grow up at this point.

It's easy to pontificate when you've done shit your entire life, just a dilletante. He's the epitomy of every middle-manager who spouts bs but really has nothing to say.
He was kind of interesting 10 years ago, today he's a fucking no-talent cock.

3 years to make video games and little java phone apps? You can learn that in a month.

He spews crap from his mouth like no other.. but he's produced nothing, not a thing. At this point of his life, I'd think he'd have something better to contribute to us than acne, an inflated sense of self, and skills at spending his parents' hard-earned money.

Posted by: frank hall at May 13, 2005 10:29 PM

Wow, that was a very post-specific SPAM comment. Their technology is getting better!

Posted by: marxy at May 13, 2005 10:37 PM

I don't know much about Justin, but it seems like "oversharing" is the pop-psych word of the hour, something that maybe a primary school teacher would use to chide a hyperactive blabberkid into momentary silence. ("We're oversharing again, aren't we, Shane? Let's have a time-out for a few minutes so that Vanessa can tell us all about her rubber-band sculpture now, shall we?") So then is "oversharing" just a euphemism for compulsive exhibitionism and attention-demanding behavior? A "Mommy! Daddy! Watch this! Look at me!" kind of thing gone totally haywire? Or what?

Posted by: Loki at May 15, 2005 7:47 PM

Justin Hall wasn't the first to share aspects of his life over the Internet. Before the Web there was Usenet (which still exists and is still very active). People have been writing about their lives on the Internet since the early 1980s.

Justin Hall unfortunately still hasn't learned that the Internet is not a community. It is a tool. He already went through one "mental breakdown" which he videoed and posted to his website. He still doesn't seem to know when he's experiencing real life and when he's playing to the camera.

Justin Hall is truly a child of the information age, and he's probably the worse for it.

Posted by: Hal Call at May 17, 2005 7:21 AM

I've followed Justin since "homepage" and MacWorld SF, and find him to be a risk-taker and a truthseeker. He's got the balls to put himself out there in a court of widely-diverse public scrutiny with genuine innocence and inquisitiveness. Those that would label him a dilatante are jealous and bitter old queens who missed their calling. Why not just stay tuned like the rest of us, as we watch Justin's transformation unfold?

Posted by: banteron at May 20, 2005 12:23 AM

Where is this bitterness coming from towards Justin? Are you all basically people who read every word the man wrote and somehow became infatuated or obsessed with someone's online persona?

I think Justin is/was a good read and someone who was very thoughtful and influential in the continuing evolution of the internet. I started reading him when basically he was the only guide to the fledgeling internet porn scene! Prurient something is what he called it. I lost track of him twice for about 2 or 3 years, then started reading again. Consistently interesting. I see that the details of his life (family, relationships, etc.) are online, but I really don't get all that invested in it. I know the sketch of his life but don't stress the details. Is stressing the details the key to being bitter and angry towards Justin for some oblique reason?

I just don't get it. He's an internet inspiration who genuinely changed the web and made it a better place... he may have many personal flaws, but how is that relevant to reading his thoughts in an interview?

Posted by: Teddy at June 30, 2005 3:23 PM

i miss Justin!
what a provocative character -- note the commentary here -- people spending a lot of energy on him! that's a lot of power that he holds, and that people give to him. for that, he gets "respek" from me.

even though he's largely absent from the blogging world, he seems to have created a negative space (not as in "bad" but as in the imprint he's left) full of questions and conjecture. that's cool, too. i think the questions seem largely symptomatic of larger issues around identity and the net. what impressions do we make on each other? how are we communicating? how much of ourselves (our true selves) do we put forth?

anyway. thanks for the great interview. it was an intriguing read -- good questions!

Posted by: C(h)ristine at July 26, 2005 4:56 PM


I read Justin's site almost daily from '95 to about '02, when I (and the 'net) finally, dare I say it, "grew out" of it.

I dislike the style of "Frank Hall"'s comments, but I think there's a grain of truth in them. I think I even posted rants on Justin's site that drifted in the same general direction (that's when I realized the romance was over, and I had to move on).

Justin's early quasi-celebrity is a classic case of right place, right time. He spoke directly to the affluent white youth culture of the 90s, or at least, some part of it. I loved him for it. Lots of other people did, too. You could forgive his spoiled-brat exhibitionism, his making too much of quite ordinary youthful experimentation with drugs and sex.

He simply hasn't aged well -- the Japan adventure struck me as the beginning of a really awkward floundering about as the Web became more commonplace, the technology too complex for amateur generalist to master, and gen-X started facing grown-up type problems. And yes, the extended floundering is a mark of his social privilege, a real luxury, and I can see where that might really bother some people.

The end of "oversharing" looks like a healthy step for him.

My hope for Justin is that he learns the difference between his ego and his ideals, and that both might become a little less inflated. That the man grows up, in other words. That'll disappoint his younger fans who believe Justin's own hype about himself, who are still looking for idols. But they'll get over it.

Posted by: scrutator at August 3, 2005 3:25 AM

Justin was "new" and made a great contribution by honestly writing about his life in an open forum. I certainly wouldn't do it. And if he was not the first, he was perhaps - the most open to attack.

Posted by: C Clinch at August 20, 2005 2:42 PM

Hey, I think that some people could have more consideration for Justin having the guts to share his life on the net. I think one person mentioned that internet is a "tool". Well, in case you didn't notice, it's used for a variety (understatement) of things, including self-expression and creative outlets. If you want to name the net a "tool", you can say we're "tools", too.
I wish people would chill out, and relax! I give Mr. Hall a lot of respect for expressing what we wouldn't dare, and for doing it so creatively, too! His site took a lot of time and commitment, so don't think your 2-second bashing is going to make a huge difference on a decade of hard work!!

Posted by: leejihee at August 21, 2005 9:12 AM

I've read Justin's website off and on for years. I think as I got older his life and his writing seemed increasingly adolescent. The rest of us grew up, took on adult responsibilities and Justin didn't. Where there's no struggle there's no depth.

Posted by: Jeff at August 21, 2005 1:28 PM

As one new to Justin Hall; I have to say a lot of what he writes is profound. Of course to Frank Hall (related?) he will always be a waste of space, as he doesnt contribute to the Bush Economy, or otherwise justify his existence.

No; he's interested in exploring his existence.

Here's a clue Frank: Nobody has to justify their existence. Not to you, not to me, not to anyone. If someone wants to spend their life stoned on a beach, its their life. Not yours. If someone wants to a a poet, its their choice, not yours. If someone wants to climb a mountain "because its there", its their choice, not yours.

George Bush blew his parents money (and the money of well-connected friends) on cocaine, fast cars and women. - oh, and oil companies. Who cares? Its his choice, not yours.

I have read things of Justin which I find profound. The only thing I have read from you was the rant above, which I found neither witty nor profound.

Posted by: Mike at November 27, 2005 10:33 AM