It seems to me that any argument you have with the Three Bicrees you also have with Eye Yamataka and countless other Japanese "fashion rastas" and hip hop devotees, not to mention almost the entire district of Amerika-Mura.

So you're saying there are no degrees of "blackface" - that all appropriations of African-American culture are all equal? Dressing in FUBU track suits is the same as painting just your face black as a gag?

My problem with the Three Bicrees is not that they are trying to have "Black" style or are doing "Black" music, but they seem to have antiquated notions that racial makeup is crucial for cultural activity - almost like they were to put on fake big noses to go work at the bank or bagel store.

Hip hop kids may have full-body tans or dreds, but the don't paint their faces black and leave the rest normal. Three Bicrees seem to be into very traditional rules of blackface - like that episode of "Give Me a Break" where Joey Lawrence does a blackface routine to impress Nell. (And boy what a lesson he learned from that mistake!)

We could all learn a few lessons from Nell Carter.

they seem to have antiquated notions that racial makeup is crucial for cultural activity - almost like they were to put on fake big noses to go work at the bank or bagel store.

B-but they're living proof that racial makeup (and I like your choice of words there) is just that, makeup! That it isn't crucial for cultural activity! They're Japanese! If Michael Jackson can choose to wear white skin, surely they can choose to wear black skin?

Black hairstyles are the trend this summer, says Antenna-Net.

Hip be hot, say Atomic Bomb Productions.

Well, speaking as an African American (or "Black", if one prefers) I must say I find the pigmentation employed on the three Bicrees -- which is surprisingly realistic, not the absurd black face you'd expect if the goal was cruel parody and insult -- to be intriguing.

That is, real Black people are never "black" at all in the way traditional black face presents. Indeed, traditional black face was a method for creating a mythological "black" who neatly fit White stereotypes: dark as interstellar space, stupid, relentlessly jokey, etc. This allowed Whites to avoid 'seeing' the real Black people around them -- they could comfortably overlay the real with the myth-template provided via minstrelsy, retaining the distance racist ideology requires.

This picture of Kuwaman with Three Bicrees seems remote from that sort of madness...more a context less homage to a mid sixties pop princess vision of Black women and smooth cat jazz adept.

It reminds me more of the way Catholic nuns and other Christendom iconography are sometimes featured in various Anime products: as symbols to play with that vaguely signify religiousness but free of the weight they carry in the West.

M.

I think that's right, M, and I think the world divides between those who experience Japan's (and postmodernism's) separation of signs from any question of authentic (which of course includes things like "suffering" and "paying your dues") as a liberation, and those who see it as a threat.

"authenticity", I meant.

I guess my problem is still with assigning the root of cultural products/fads/fashions to race and not communities. Hairstyles, clothes, behavior, accesories, music, styles of speech can all be manipulated and changed and removed, but race cannot - except for the very rare exception of Michael Jackson.

I really don't buy this argument that blackface shows that racial signifiers "cannot be chosen". Surely it shows the opposite, that they can?

I get the impression that your discomfort with swastikas, Groucho Marx noses and blackface all come from the same thing: the fact that they remind you of historical atrocities. While of course you're right that these atrocities (the Holocaust, slavery) happened, the problem is that by saying that certain racial signifiers must forever remain tragic or taboo, must never be played around with, you're actually perpetuating an image of Jews and blacks as eternal victims. Which helps nobody, really.

those who see it as a threat.

I am hardly threatened by Japanese fashion, but I very much doubt that this behavior would still exist if Japanese kids really understood what was going on in the rest of the world and not just the stripped-down, consumer-information version of "international culture." These ideas about race or swastikas aren't progressive or radical - they're novel solely from the fact they were created in a total vacuum. Everything's been stripped of meaning, which, yes! makes for some interesting new usage, but I find it hard to chant, "Keep Japan ignorant!"

There are three attitudes here:

1) Doing "borderline" racist activity without having any idea about the historical circumstances that made these activities taboo in the first place.
2) Not doing "borderline" racist activity because you know full well about the historical circumstances.
3) Doing "borderline" racist activity as a way to "liberate" the symbols from their original meanings.

Momus seems to be celebrating #3, and I'm complaining that #1 (Japanese kids) cannot be confused with #3. You can't "skip over" #2 to be able to really do what you are so excited about.

You're implying that a course unit on slavery would stop Kuwaman with 3 Bicrees in their tracks? No more tribute bands to the 3 Degrees? "Oh my God," Kuwaman would exclaim, "I never realised how much black people suffered! I will make a country and western tribute instead... to Johnny Cash!" And then someone will tell him that Cash was American Indian, and that there was a holocaust there too...

marxy:

Hairstyles, clothes, behavior, accesories, music, styles of speech can all be manipulated and changed and removed, but race cannot - except for the very rare exception of Michael Jackson.

......

I think people misunderstand what might be called the "Michael Jackson Project" which, as I see it, is not so much to change 'races' (the usual charge) as to transcend humanity itself and become entirely other.

His affect is not that of a stereotyped American White male and if his sole objective was simply to no longer be considered 'Black' he might have stopped with the skin lighteners and adopted a different manner.

But he went far, far beyond that, traveling to some parallel and impossible to inhabit universe where it's always playtime and questionable moments spent with children are an innocent expression of de-sexualized love.

His compound is called "Neverland" after all.

These are not the ingredients of a merely 'race change' centered endeavor.

M.

Marxy must think the Village People are the most criminal band of all time!

marxy:

Momus seems to be celebrating #3, and I'm complaining that #1 (Japanese kids) cannot be confused with #3. You can't "skip over" #2 to be able to really do what you are so excited about.

.....

But the problem, of course, is that these ideas, images, memes (to indulge in a bit of retro-fashionability) float freely across the world and are adopted by whoever (whomever?) is attracted to them.

There won't be a Japanese educational program crafted to make Japanese hipsters think two or three times before using blackface or doing anything else that here, in the US, would be extraordinarily racially charged.

The entire blackface thing isn't a part of their history, their grandfathers didn't sit in vaudeville houses in New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Huntsville, Alabama or anywhere else slapping their knees in delight as heavily make up'd White guys mugged for the audience in an anti-matter simulacrum of 'Black' people's behavior.

The whole thing's weightless to them (as, indeed, it is for most Americans who disavow any knowledge of such uncomfortable topics).

In short, our complaints -- if we choose to complain -- are as weightless and context free as their mimicry.

M.

M.: That is a pretty good point, I'll admit.

But while these jazzy cats may not be related to old-timey minstrel shows, I can't help but think that the foreign talent Bobby's broken-Japanese television buffoonery is essentially the same sort of laughing at racist stereotypes. Maybe the Black fashion nuggets are unrelated to "racism" as we would perceive it in the West, but that doesnt' mean that racism doesn't exist in Japan.

Monroe said: "their grandfathers didn't sit ... [slap] their knees in delight as heavily make up'd White guys mugged for the audience in an anti-matter simulacrum of 'Black' people's behavior."

Unfortunately, yes they did:

http://www.blackshipsandsamurai.com/compsite/vis_encounters_west.html

Scroll right to see Commodore Perry's minstrel show.

For those who are keeping score, this makes one bad idea Japan got from the West...

marxy:

Maybe the Black fashion nuggets are unrelated to "racism" as we would perceive it in the West, but that doesnt' mean that racism doesn't exist in Japan.

.....

Yes, absolutely.

And, at the risk of going all historical on everyone's asses (including my own) I think it's important to point out the often troubled situation of people of Korean descent and other non-ethnically Japanese Asians living in Japan as well as the dark star shiningly racist character of the Pacific War era "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" concept which viewed Japan as the "light of Asia".

Old news of course but so is slavery in the US and look! Problem not solved yet! So this issue endures.

There are many other examples of course but space is limited.

M.

"Guest" brings to light:

http://www.blackshipsandsamurai.com/compsite/vis_encounters_west.html

==========

Fascinating.

Of course, this shows how profoundly a part of American culture the blackface show was. So extraordinarily popular it was considered a fine thing for the Perry expedition to share with its Japanese hosts.

But still, the Japanese weren't the architects of this perfidy and so even if they were exposed, the full context was not their concern.

That is, back home, White folks were insulting actually existing Black people -- neighbors, countrymen, sometimes relatives (yes, lots of Euro genes in the Afro-American pool as my part Scot great grandma would tell you though shhh, don't say this too loudly) -- with this awful stuff.

No mid 19th century Japanese person viewing a blackface show was doing anything similarly shameful.

M.

Yes, it's true that Japan lacked actual Black people to relate to at that time. Perhaps this is why, despite the best efforts of Perry and his ilk, the Japanese attitude towards people of African descent remains distinct from that of the West. They certainly did get a lot of racist cultural baggage from the West though, and in some cases they may actually have hung onto it longer than the West (of course, we could go into a tatemae and honne discussion of just how much the West has overcome racism).

Adopting Western-style racism was just as much a part of becoming Modern as adopting the steam engine, so it makes sense for racism to remain socially acceptable in Japan if Japan is indeed more Modern ("hyper" or otherwise) than Postmodern, as some would argue.

Note the stereotyping of Koreans and other Asians, which, interestingly, now includes positive stereotypes about Korean men as love interests.

And this is purely anecdotal, but I've known young Korean-Japanese who African American-identify through hip-hop fashion and culture, etc. Given their experiences growing up in Japan as a marginalized group, and the history of their ancestors having been forcibly taken to Japan to work as slave labor, robbed of their language, etc, this seems like quite a legitimate and understandable indentification to me. I wonder if their experiences will be any different now that there are widespread positive stereotypes of Koreans (Yon-sama) and Black Americans (hip-hop) in the Japanese media? Will (re)claiming Korean identity become positively fetishized, the way (re)claiming Okinawan identity has in recent years?

Also, I highly recommend the movie "GO" as one presentation of life as a Korean-Japanese.

If it makes a difference, male lead Yosuke Kubozuka is a total hunk... but what was up with that anti-Chinese stuff in "Ping Pong?"

And of course, "GO" may be the vanguard of the positive fetishization of Korean-Japanese identity.

When the movie first came out, I remember seeing posts to the bulletin board on its website, (ostensibly) by Korean-Japanese young people talking about the feeling of finally having their experience acknowledged in popular media. At least one kid said something like "I get bullied in school, but this movie makes me feel good about myself."

guest: I saw "GO" on late night TV a while back, it was indeed interesting.

All: this is a much more productive discussion than the previous ones. I'm actually re-examining my outlook on the matter thanks to the productive comments by Monroe and (shock) Momus.

"Guest" --

Note the stereotyping of Koreans and other Asians, which, interestingly, now includes positive stereotypes about Korean men as love interests.

And this is purely anecdotal, but I've known young Korean-Japanese who African American-identify through hip-hop fashion and culture, etc. Given their experiences growing up in Japan as a marginalized group, and the history of their ancestors having been forcibly taken to Japan to work as slave labor, robbed of their language, etc, this seems like quite a legitimate and understandable indentification to me...

=====

This agrees with my experiences: my wife is S. Korean (hails from GwangJu) so I spend a good amount of time amongst Korean Americans and travel to Seoul and GwangJu a few times a year.

The Korean "heart throb" explosion in Japan is very interesting. My wife smiles and notes that it surely took the Japanese long enough to realize there was another major, wealthy and technically advanced Asian culture right next door creating glittering pop artifacts; the home of quite a few very attractive people including the now lauded archetypal square jawed, yet sensitive Korean dude in Armani.

M.

If it makes a difference, male lead Yosuke Kubozuka is a total hunk... but what was up with that anti-Chinese stuff in "Ping Pong?"

Well, China's another ballpark altogether. Still, I actually kinda warmed to the Chinese cat in "Ping Pong". He certainly seemed to be the most clued-up character in the whole movie.

Thought experiment:

White dudes wanna play the koto. First, they put on kimonos, to get into the spirit. (Cool.) Then, they paint their faces yellow and tape their eyes "slanty." (Uncool.)

I think its true, that in a parallel universe that didn't have the racist history of ours, there would be nothing wrong with blackface, per se. But the fact is that in our world, there is something wrong with black face, namely that it dredges up memories of the years when the most common form of entertainment in the US was white people making fun of black people.

Now, the Japanese are generally ignorant of this history, so that let's them off the hook right? Well, no not quite. The fact is, Japanese people have a responsibility to learn more about African-American history if they're going to start appropriating cultural artifacts from them. You can't take something you like from a culture (jazz), then combine it with something hateful to that culture (blackface) and then claim ignorance. It'd be like putting a menorah logo on your hot dog package. "Oh! I just thought it looked cool." Well, yeah, maybe, but the fact is it's offensive to combine those things to a large number of people, so if you're going to start taking things you have to do due diligence about it.

The offensive part isn't that Japanese are trying to replicate blackface, it's that they don't care enough to wonder whether there could be any potential subtext to what they're doing.

The fact is, Japanese people have a responsibility to learn more about African-American history if they're going to start appropriating cultural artifacts from them... the fact is it's offensive to combine those things to a large number of people, so if you're going to start taking things you have to do due diligence about it.

Go back and read what Monroe wrote about this - I think it's a lot more complex/nuanced than you're making out. Still, you make a good point - it reminds me of the furor that erupted over 'Kakuto Chojin' a few years ago. Remember that one? The fighting game that used sections of the Koran on its soundtrack... woo-hoo! I guess it pays to do your research.

White dudes wanna play the koto. First, they put on kimonos, to get into the spirit. (Cool.) Then, they paint their faces yellow and tape their eyes "slanty." (Uncool.)

I think this is wide of the mark. Look at some of the movies that came out of the US in the late-1950s: 'Teahouse of the August Moon' saw Marlon Brando playing a Japanese interpreter, while (even more wrong-headedly) 'Sayonara' had the hulking Ricardo Montalban as a kabuki actor. Automatically "uncool" in your book, then. But neither film tried to ridicule the Japanese - if anything, they were almost ridiculously affectionate in the way they portrayed the country. Brando's mugging in 'Teahouse...' is pretty cringeworthy, but in itself it's no worse than what you see in 'Lost in Translation' - save for the fact that it's an American, rather than Japanese, actor in the role. So, in some ways, we're back to the "Blackface vs Bobby" debate. Ooh, I've gone cross-eyed.

in our world, there is something wrong with black face, namely that it dredges up memories of... white people making fun of black people.

What about this: in our world, there is something wrong with the taboo on blackface, namely that it dredges up memories of... white people making fun of black people.

And again, my point to you would be, why allow atrocity to mark some signifiers permanently? Who does this help?

Also: the specific reference the Three Bicrees are making is to one of the triumphs of black culture, The Three Degrees. Not to slavery, one of its defeats. So why must the defeat always be presumed to eclipse the triumph, and why would making no reference whatsoever to black culture be better?

if japanese entertainers were to try to dress up as "a korean person" or "a chinese person" (rather than a specific celebrity) by somehow reforming their facial features or skin tone, I suspect it would be taken as intentional racism even by the japanese audience.

I agree that this may not be racist, in that racism lies in the intention. What we see as expressions of racism versus good old tomfoolery has more to do with our knowledge of the situation, and a history of hate. Since the UK and states have no real history with kazakhstan, no one gets all that upset about Borat (right or wrong). Likewise the Japanese don't have so much history with blacks.
However...are we strictly policing thought when it comes to racism? Or is it maybe bad to be racist because it effects other people?

The harder to accept part of the momus argument is that no one has a right to be offended by anything.

oops... second sentence's "this" refers to kuwaman with three bicrees.

Should gay people be offended by ハードゲイ, a presumably straight Japanese man who dresses in tight leather shorts and runs around dry-humping people and things for kicks?

Should gay people be offended by ハードゲイ, a presumably straight Japanese man who dresses in tight leather shorts and runs around dry-humping people and things for kicks?

Well, I think that all comes down to the evolution of the general public's understanding of a given issue. Japan is behind most Western countries in gay rights, so this kind of humour is, as it were, permissible. A lot of Western humour in the 60s and 70s used pretty broad gay stereotypes, only for these later to be subverted - often, by openly gay performers themselves. Maybe we can expect the same thing to happen in Japan in the future...? I'm not saying that ハードゲイ　is okay, but I think you need to take Japanese society's (and not just the West's) view of homosexuals into account when judging him. He's a product of the times.

ah, sorry... wasn't caught up on some comments, and the left, right hand fork thing is an interesting challenge... but apples to oranges.

matters of etiquette and matters near-globally recognized identifiers of racial antipathy.

I think marxy's original provocative question is kind of important. Does japan permanently exist outside of western history? They're more a part of the western world for the last fifty years than a lot of south america.
Does japan really have an excuse for it's ignorance? (I say swastika no, blackface yes, but beside the point)

Seperately, if we all agree that flaunting the swastika before people to whom it has historical relevance is a bad thing, isn't flying to harajuku just the cursory check for black people before telling a joke about coons?

Jrim,
to my knowledge gays have it considerably better in japan than in kansas, or even london.
I know nothing of angry homophobia in this country.

when you say japan is behind other countries in gay rights, what do you mean?

I think the Brando/Montalban examples show the difference between portraying a character, which is cool, and portraying a race, which is not. If I'm a white guy playing my koto and saying, "I like rice; I mispronounce my L's and R's," between songs, it's straight up racist, because I'm portraying stereotypes (that are mostly true, as it turns out) about Japanese people. On the other hand, if as a white guy, I were to star in a play about a koto player and take on yellow face, there's nothing really racist about that. Actors can portray whoever the hell they want. The only question is whether you do a good job as your character.

Anyhow, I recognize that this situation is a fuzzy one-- Kuwaman with Three Bicrees is neither completely racist nor completely innocent. It's somewhere in between, and to say more, I'd have to hear how the band describes itself. I'm just saying that ignorance isn't always an excuse.

ok, 35% poor taste, but...

from kissui's comment log "60 years is a long time but the memories should never die."

So momus, should august 6th (my dad's birthday) be forever stigmatized? What is japan doing but perpetuating it's vicitmhood? Or is it different if the victims were japanese?

I don't think people should look at any representation of Japanese people in the American media and think "Oh, we nuked them" (with either relish or horror), if that's what your asking. Victimhood must never be allowed to become what Symbolic Interactionists call a "master identity", but neither must it be erased. I sort of agree with Carl above when he says "I'd like to hear how the band describes itself". This is all about context.

Then again, since a black person has told us he doesn't think it's offensive to black people, I think those of us arguing it is are being a little patronising. Has anyone ever seen the Africans on Takeshita Street abusing or assaulting ganguro types, or Japanfarians, or J-hip hoppers? I doubt it. And finally, it's only black people who can tell us definitively if this offends black people.

well, that's one black person down... how many are left?

Also, deliberately conflating japanese hip hop and black face is not on the square.

when you say japan is behind other countries in gay rights, what do you mean?

I meant that in terms of the amount of dialogue that goes on regarding the issue, really. You're absolutely right: in some ways, gay people have to cop a lot more shit in England than in Japan. You get a lot more of what you call "angry homophobia" - but, then, the same thing applies to race issues: just look at the recent murder of Anthony Walker in Liverpool, or Stephen Lawrence before that. The thing is, despite the deeply retarded views of certain elements of society, the government's national policy is one that openly condemns - and seeks to prevent - discrimination on the grounds of race, sexuality or gender. The fact that this isn't always successful is one thing, but the overall "public face" of the country is as one that condemns that kind of shit. Why? Because the issues have been getting wrestled with, in public, for decades. It's in that respect that I think Japan is behind: yes, gay guys here probably won't get beaten up in the street but, similarly, it's still not that uncommon for them to live their whole lives without ever coming out, even going so far as to get married and have kids in order to prevent bringing shame on themselves, their families, etc. A good friend of mine came over here from England but had to bail after a couple of years purely because the subterfuge involved in being a gay man in Japan was getting too much for him.

since a black person has told us he doesn't think it's offensive to black people, I think those of us arguing it is are being a little patronising... it's only black people who can tell us definitively if this offends black people.

Cool. So if I ask Shintaro Ishihara what Japanese people think about Koreans, I don't need to ask anyone else? I mean, he's Japanese, so that settles it, right?

So, if just one black person is offended by the way his/her race is represented by the Three Bicrees, no more tributes to the Three Degrees? Is that it? Or are we going with 50% or over? What about asking the Three Bicrees' audience, who I'm sure are all Japanese?

And also: whoever said that globalisation was about everybody signing up for guilt for everyone else's atrocities?

And also: what if the Three Bicrees actually feel there's a correspondence between white America's mistreatment of black Americans, and white America's mistreatment of Japan? I've certainly noticed that the Japanese definition of "cool" contains a lot of black American cultural markers, even some American Indian markers, but not so many white American cultural markers.

So, if just one black person is offended by the way his/her race is represented by the Three Bicrees, no more tributes to the Three Degrees? Is that it? Or are we going with 50% or over? What about asking the Three Bicrees' audience, who I'm sure are all Japanese?

No, but I don't think you should close the debate on the grounds of what one person has said, as you seemed to be doing.

And also: what if the Three Bicrees actually feel there's a correspondence between white America's mistreatment of black Americans, and white America's mistreatment of Japan? I've certainly noticed that the Japanese definition of "cool" contains a lot of black American cultural markers, even some American Indian markers, but not so many white American cultural markers.

"What if?", indeed. I'd be amazed if there was anything so meta going on here but, then, this country never ceases to surprise me. As for Japanese trends appropriating from Afro-American culture - what, and white US kids don't do the same thing? You may be right but, to be honest, I think a more plausible argument is just that Afro-American culture is cool at the moment. You see exactly the same phenomenon in a lot of other countries that haven't been "mistreat[ed] by white America" in the past.

What does it mean to say this? "The people making this tribute band don't think it's offensive to black people. Neither do their audience. Neither does a black person who's offered his opinion. However, I do think it's offensive to black people. If you point out to me that a black person here has said it doesn't offend him, I'll discount his opinion. It's just one voice amongst many. I haven't yet found a black person who's offended by this, but I'm sure there are some out there. This one person who wasn't might be as atypical as right wing mayor Ishihara." Way to discredit the very people you claim to be protecting!

Unfortunately, this is the modus operandi of Neomarxisme, the thrust of all too many of the posts here. The interpretation always hinges on their being a fixed, objective and negative meaning to relationships which are contractual, consensual and celebratory. Marxy poses as the great protector of the Japanese people, while telling us day in, day out that one aspect after another of their culture is objectively mistaken.

nick say: Marxy poses as the great protector of the Japanese people, while telling us day in, day out that one aspect after another of their culture is objectively mistaken.

and r. say: moronic cynicism? fine. and momus poses as the great celebutant of the japanese people by telling us ad absurdum that the whole of their culture MUST be radically and subjectively affirmed, lest we risk 'open and critical dialogue'...

moronic cynicism vs. moronic cynosure

...and never the twain shall meet! (but often DO on this blog at least...)

A few things:
- You're right, it's wrong to discount someone's view out of hand, simply because you're convinced that the opposite view is right. But, equally, I think it's wrong to base a whole argument around what a single person has said.
- "The people making this tribute band don't think it's offensive to black people. Neither do their audience." You're probably right, but do you actually know this? I mean, I was under the impression that no-one here knew anything more about this act than what we could gleam from the photo Marxy posted. If I'm wrong about that, please enlighten me.

You forget that my brain is extended by my beautiful assistant, Hisae, who not only speaks Japanese but lived through decades of Japanese TV firsthand. So it's possible that I know rather more than even Marxy does about this group, unless he has a Japanese girlfriend too (something this blog has never mentioned, so I don't see why it would be the case).

Kuwaman is actually Kumamon from 80s-90s band Rats and Star, who were often on TV and were famous for, yes, darkening their faces. Kuwamon got quite popular thanks to his TV appearances and drifted from music to comedy. When I asked my "source" if she thought Kuwamon's act was funny because he was making fun of black people, she shook her head very definitively. "I've never thought of it in that way. Rats and Star were very skilled and it's considered very good music group, respectful to black music."

Momus:

since a black person has told us he doesn't think it's offensive to black people, I think those of us arguing it is are being a little patronising.

=======

Well, I can't completely agree with this, for reasons I'll get to in a sec.

Regarding my own feelings (as a black person)...

Specifically, the reason I'm not offended by the make up used on the Three Bicrees is because it shows an effort to capture the subtle, actually brown, skin tones of real black people and not the insane darkness we associate with black face.

That is, by taking the extra time to apply realistic pigmentation make up (note the accurate hairstyles as well), there's a visual suggestion the overall project is not meant as an insult but a tribute to the glam style of a particular time in black American pop.

...

Back to Momus' comment...

As others have pointed out, I'm only one black guy so my opinions should not be interpreted as the final word on the topic. I'm sure many black people would be offended just on principle. I suspect my direct familiarity with Japanese and Korean cultures (this sort of thing happens in S. Korea too btw) and sympathy for the Momus global, postmod project and POV, makes me less easily offended than many would be.

M.

Momus: please please please (reference intentional) do try to go one whole thread w/o personal attacks.

r: you too.

Again this has to be the most interesting discussion we've all had here in a long time. Lets please keep it that way.

Perhaps this is boiling things down rather unfairly, but I would expect some angry reactions if it was white people doing this rather than yellow people.

I suppose one could argue that if they're going to the effort of copying the music, hairstyles etc. etc. then they should be wise enough to know that some people may be offended. On the other hand, the band perform in Japan, and nobody who watches it is likely to be offended.

My personal standard on this kind of thing is that it's okay to make fun of / play with a stereotype as long as your audience is composed of mostly the 'victims'. So curry jokes are okay with Indians, and I suppose Holocaust jokes are okay with Jews. I guess in those situations it can only be construed as situation #3.

Of course, if those people aren't there, it wouldn't be 'liberating stereotypes', but propogating them. The guy playing ハードゲイ isn't 'liberating symbols', he's propogating a stereotype. (Assuming the guy's audience is Joe Public, and not a certain subset for whom symbols might mean something else.)

Back to the band, kind of a grey area I suppose. You can't help but be frustrated with ignorance. I was having dinner with some Japanese friends a few days ago and they rolled out the Korean boyfriend stereotype - Momus, what's Hisae's feeling around the stereotype of the Japanese wife?

Dave:

Perhaps this is boiling things down rather unfairly, but I would expect some angry reactions if it was white people doing this rather than yellow people.

=======

True enough I suppose.

But that's because white people have a um, special history with this sort of thing and therefore, it can reasonably be argued, an enhanced responsibility to be more alert to possible mis-interpretations and misunderstandings (i.e. you mean to do a tribute to show your love but fail to understand -- as an American from Pittsburgh, that browning your face might seem too close to what your ancestors did in a far less than loving way).

Even so, we do have plenty of white kids who've accidentally discovered that black culture is American culture (no, not all of it, but woven through every thread like Anglo/Irish/Scot/Italian/Korean/Japanese/...etc) so it's really theirs in a broader sense -- for example, Hip Hop isn't the property of black Americans, the rants of some latter day black nationalists notwithstanding, but an expression of contemporary American pop.

Which is why only dumb asses (and old folks...or those who think like old folks) criticize white kids for rapping as if it's somehow odd they should choose to do so.

M.

if monroe had said he considered the group offensive, I think momus would be the one saying that one black person cannot stand for the whole race.

momus, am i wrong?

Monroe offers a valuable (extra valuable?) opinion to the fray, but not seeing him as the holder of gospel truth does not make us so dogmatic.

nate:

Monroe offers a valuable (extra valuable?) opinion to the fray, but not seeing him as the holder of gospel truth does not make us so dogmatic.

==========

Exactly.

Mine is obviously just one way of seeing things; surely not the final word.

M.

And if you haven't seen this:

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

you need to check it out! I laughed so hard I almost cried...

A thought: Hopefully one of the things the whole hiphop/dancehall boom in Japan will mean is that Japanese kids with naturally curly hair won't hate themselves anymore. There is a significant minority of Japanese people with seriously kinky hair, and they catch a lot of crap from people about it, getting told it's ugly, even having to carry a note to school to prove it's not a perm (actually, I'm not sure if this humiliating practice still exists, but it certainly did at one time).

Will the pendulum now swing the other way so that everybody else in school thinks they're cool for having hair like Busta Rhymes? Changing a negative stereotype to a positive one wouldn't be the best lesson to take from the whole thing, but hey...

Jrim said: "Well, China's another ballpark altogether. Still, I actually kinda warmed to the Chinese cat in "Ping Pong". He certainly seemed to be the most clued-up character in the whole movie."

You may be right, I don't remember the movie all that well, but I do remember being put off by the anti-Chinese sentiment of the characters we were supposed to sympathize with...

guest:

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

you need to check it out! I laughed so hard I almost cried...

=====

Yeah, I love that site.

In fact, I've used it as a sort of hammer once or twice.

For example...

About a year ago I got involved in a typical Internet row over, of all things, Bill Cosby.

On a listserv, a white dude was blasting me for failing to show the proper level of genuflection to Cosby who, after all, was a billionaire (unlike lowly non-billions equipped me).

When I informed this lobotomy patient that perhaps it was possible to disagree with Herr Kultur Minister Cosby he pulled the ultimate weapon out of the lint encrusted recesses of his back pocket:

"...I asked three of my black friends and they told me..."

Which, of course, is when I directed him to "Black People Love Us"

M.
--

Momus, what's Hisae's feeling around the stereotype of the Japanese wife?

I'm not even sure what "the stereotype of the Japanese wife" is. To the Japanese, to the West? But you're not asking me. Hisae says "Japanese wife or Japanese houswife? There's many styles of being a Japanese wife, it depends on if they have jobs or not... I have the image of the Japanese wife staying home and dreaming about Yon-Sama."

The specific question of this thread regarding this group is hard for me to adress, I know nothing of them, their music or their situation in time. I dont know what their performances sound like either.

momus: to what degree do you rely on one person for your interpreted views? This is not an attack, its a question. Besides Hisae, how many people do you routinely consult with over these sorts of cultural questions.

Monroe: I forget if I've asked you this but have you lived/do you live here? BTW, regarding Herr Cosby: I recently picked up some DVDs of Fat Albert on a nostalgia whim. I loaned one to a friend here and when he returned it he asked me if the show was considered racist in America. Took me a few minutes to get over my memory of the show to understand his question.

marxy's not the only one concerned with japanese perceptions/representations of black people. professor john g. russell's 「日本人の黒人観　ー　問題は’ちびくろサンボ’だけではない」was written in japanese and published by 新評論 in 1991 (latest edition 1994). just thought I'd share this info.

Chris_B:

I forget if I've asked you this but have you lived/do you live here?

=======

Not in Japan, no.

I have been to Tokyo however (courtesy of the wonder of client provided expense accounts -- like a character in a William Gibson novel I've been able to do exquisite things on someone else's dime).

My lovely wife is S. Korean so we spend a fair amount of time every year in her hometown of GwangJu (the "fiber optic city", my brother-in-law would like me to point out to you) and also travel to Seoul to see her sister who kindly provides us with gadgets that aren't available in the US.

I do have a long standing affinity for Japanese culture however, which I discovered at an early age. The design aesthetic always appealed to me and the remarkable absorption rate of new ideas from around the globe is also something I've always found very attractive and worth celebrating (S. Koreans share this trait, btw).

So, as Lenin (or someone) once said, "it's no accident" I somehow stumbled into a situation as a teen kid where my friendship circle was well mixed with Japanese expats, Koreans, Chinese and of course, other black and Latino kids.

It's this cultural mashup and my continuing experiences in the region that give me some perspective on stuff like this blackface business.

M.
-

M: I wasnt really questioning you, just asking a question. BTW I enjoy a nice 100Mb fiber line here in Tokyo with no transfer caps, full duplex and no problem running servers for about US$50/mo. To make things more fun, its terminated with a Cisco PIX and all the servers are OSX so I dont have to worry about my wintel neighbors poluting me. This is highly unusual here though and a sure sign of my Gibsonesque background ^_^

Favorite quote "the sky over the Chiba Bridge was the color of a TV set tuned to no channel". What a dissapointment when I learned Chiba is a craphole and I still get a laugh out of the fact that many readers will think that means the sky was blue. I assume you know what I mean there.

Chris_B:

I enjoy a nice 100Mb fiber line here in Tokyo with no transfer caps, full duplex and no problem running servers for about US$50/mo.

....

Oh, that is nice. Yes, very nice indeed. Man, I don't want to even think of what a similar deal would cost in the States.

Chris_B:

Favorite quote "the sky over the Chiba Bridge was the color of a TV set tuned to no channel".

...

It's remarkable how, all these years later, that opening sentence stands out in our minds so clearly -- the way you remember witnessing a too close for comfort lightning strike. The whole "Sprawl" series truly was the shock of the new in its time.

Chris_B:

I still get a laugh out of the fact that many readers will think that means the sky was blue.
I assume you know what I mean there
....

Ha! I surely do.

M.
-

nate said: Since the UK and states have no real history with kazakhstan, no one gets all that upset about Borat (right or wrong). Likewise the Japanese don't have so much history with blacks.

Well, nor do the Japanese have much history with Hungary. And yet when the Hungarians screened a Borat-inspired TV series that instead used a Hungarian playing a Japanese, the Japanese were offended enough to ask that the series be pulled from the air.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20030928b1.htm

The Japanese might consider blackface to be all in good taste, but Japanese "tributes," even those by people ethnically related to Asia, such as Hungarians, are clearly forbidden.

...nor do the Japanese have much history with Hungary

...by people ethnically related to Asia

you have a point but getting over-emphatic about it. in the two statements above you are basically contradicting yourself. using whatever means you can to force-equalize things. there are subtle differences. The hungarian character is an obvious derogative view on the japanese character. quite along the lines of the blackface thingey. with the japanese 'black-face' the element of japanese persons laghing at themselves playing the other is much stronger (if not total) than the element of ridiculing that other. you could make accusations of national narcissism here or something along those lines. Surely you could say hungarian people also only laugh at themselves watching the hungarian person play some stupid jap while interviewing other hungarian people yet i mentain there is a big difference here.

Possibly it might have to do with the fact that european psyche does have a pathological sense of racial superiority. it's so deep that it's not even noticable. On the other hand there is a strong japanese tendency to (call it passive agressive if you want) even when there are clear feelings of superiority, resentment etc etc start the game and often play it right through from an inferior or pseudo-inferior position. etc etc. point is there are too many subtle differences to allow any sense to come out of this kind of surface comparisons.

european psyche does have a pathological sense of racial superiority

just to elaborate a bit, i'm not saying nor implying europeans/ or white americans etc are worse than japanese in their racism but as a very general statement i would say that the european 'racism' is somewhere constructed around a core of 'superiority', while japanese 'racism' has 'uniqueness' or 'difference' as some sort of core. This is obviously valid only as far as these ethno-geographical distinctions still exist .. and they basically do exist

backpedal a bit more alin

ok

promt intervention by the 'peace keeping forces'

i was actually speaking as an (east) european about something quite close to home (on both sides actually), also did say i'm making a very broad generalisation. anyway i get the message , i know my place. thank you chris_b

Heh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jynx_%28Pokémon%29

Putting on black face is rediculous no matter what race you are. I tell you they dont really want to be black. You can put a black face on all you want but you can never go through the black experience unless you are African American/Black. Its incredible to see so many people acting like us wanting to be like us, but in reality you dont want or like us. So fake, you can see through this bull all around the world. I guess they think what they did was cute... i know what they did is rediculous and shamefull.

R-

This is as bad as the stamps they were selling in Mexico...
If this grup is paying respect to R&B music is one thing but they need to find another way of showing their respect. Otherwise, this is total crap!
But maybe it shows how insensitive one culture is when you don't have a diverse community.