And now, ladies and gentlemen, I turn the floor to our generation's greatest spokesman for the eroticism of young children...... Momus!

david,
preemptive comment? minus points for poor style.
luv,
r.

Last par in v. bad taste.

The Japan Times reported this in May last year.

"Busty child reported to ease anti-Japan tension in China"

By GEOFF BOTTING
from Shukan Bunshun (May 19)

preemptive comment? minus points for poor style.

I will redeem myself with more parody posts on 90s Alternative lyrics.

"Busty child reported to ease anti-Japan tension in China"

The China angle is a weird development, but distracting from the main story. Like the fact that Yakov Smirnov graduated from U. Penn the other day - the same day that Jodie Foster gave her graduation speech.

>Busty child reported to ease anti-Japan tension in China.

Confucius say to ease tense Chinaman, busty child must display more than national pride.

Yakov Smirnov: "In Japan, little girls have big busts. In Soviet Russia, the State busts little girls."

Vladimir Nabokov: "She thinks you're kinda cute, so she winks back
and now you're feelin really fine cus the girl is stacked...Says she wants to dance to a different groove, now you know what to do g, bust a move."

nice, rather balanced essay. marxy at his best. still that lofty stand though. would be nice to see something like this as a collaboration piece between marxy and a 12 yo.jap.girl, even a 42 yo salariman or any kind of (evidence of) input or close contact with the stuff discussed. armchair dealing with secondary sources and the interpretation is taking a 35°-70° turn at some point. fair enough though.

Nice to see Marxy return to form, though I find Marxy's attitudes here a bit stuffy -- degeneracy, after all, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. (And I know which I'd rather see, given the choice.)

Playboy has a solid libertarian stance, but besides the Andrea Dworkin extreme-Left wing, the groundswell against pornography and filth in the United States has always been of Conservative origin.

I think saying porn in America is liberating and porn in Japan conservative is way too pat. I had lunch today with Steve Heller, who now works at the New York Times, but was at Suck in the sexy 70s, a left-winger battling for smut. So far, so supportive of the American part of your formula. I asked Steve what had turned the tide against widespread sexual expressiveness in the US (the high water mark being about 1972) and he said it was feminism. I countered with the case of Germaine Greer, and he had to agree that she was "always doing split beaver shots", and this in the name of feminism. (A precursor of what Ariel Levy today calls "raunch feminism".)

So I think there's both left and right in porn, oppression and empowerment (after all, it's one of the areas where women have always been paid more than men). And I'd hope that you'd allow that that's the case in Japan too. I mean, you say:

The appreciation of most porn in Japan essentially comes from a type of misogyny – a belief in a cosmic order that determines women to be objects formed for the sole mission of male pleasure.

Take out "in Japan" there and you have the whole raison d'etre of all male-marketed porn everywhere. Shock horror!

HOWEVER, get out your stopwatch and time how long vibrators are applied to vaginas in the average J-porn, then do the same with a US porn film, and you'll see that female pleasure counts for more screen-minutes in Japan than it does in your beloved homeland. Japan also avoids America's misogynistic anal obsessions. I don't believe Karl Marx actually mentioned buggery in the Communist Manifesto, but if the Marquis de Sade had written it we can be sure it would come right after "chains".

For whatever reasons, “adult movies” in America have always have had an association with “liberalism” – mostly an unfair mental connection between heightened liberty and loose morality. Playboy has a solid libertarian stance, but besides the Andrea Dworkin extreme-Left wing, the groundswell against pornography and filth in the United States has always been of Conservative origin.

There we go again, the old (and innacurate) habit of comparing Japan with America.

Marxy, I think you're a bit behind on contemporary American porn/adult movies. Or better, you're suffering with nostalgia for that part of the 90's that was nostalgic about the 60's.

(and I already know what your sarcastic reply is going to be like)

Interesting points. A few clarifications from my side:

I wasn't trying to say that porn in America is actually liberating, but it is associated with the left-wing more than the right. I think when we look at users of pornography the world over, you won't see such a political divide. Perhaps a better way to say this is, in Japan, the right-wing is somewhat openly pro-porn in a way you don't see in other countries.

you'll see that female pleasure counts for more screen-minutes in Japan than it does in your beloved homeland.

I'm no expert on this, but I would make the statement that American pornography generally features women actively enjoying the sexual act, where women in Japanese porn generally feign a kind of naughty discomfort - maybe implying secret pleasure but not open enjoyment.

Japan also avoids America's misogynistic anal obsessions.

I think you are not looking hard enough to see how they make up for it. Have you heard of the "Forcing girls to binge drink and then making them have sex series". Very classy.

But to your larger point, I certainly don't think American porn is less misogynistic, but it does not fit into the hegemonic political system the way it does in Japan.

Think of how much mileage the Republican infrastructure could get out of Hollywood pushing an American Saaya Irie.

Preemptive style-less comment:

William, did you watch the Wonder Years with only one hand? I must agree Winnie Cooper was hot.

Now you're on my Kevin Arnold turf.

William, did you watch the Wonder Years with only one hand? I must agree Winnie Cooper was hot.

This is Procrustean Seeing, no?

They never put Danica McKeller in a bikini at age 12 in Penthouse.

Nick sez: Japan also avoids America's misogynistic anal obsessions.

R. sez: No it doesn't. You are just spending too much time in the Lolita/squeaky voice section of your local AV corner, that is all. There is a very rich S&M scene here full of gaping anal cavities, chains, whips, chips and dips...
And then of course, there is the booming bestiality market here, a synergyistic, misogynistic phenom coinciding with the beginning of the pet boom a few years back. How far will a young girl's love for her dog actually go? Apparently the Japanese have no qualms about NOT letting sleeping chihuahuas lie. At least they use low-fat margarine over here...

Momus sez: get out your stopwatch and time how long vibrators are applied to vaginas in the average J-porn

R. sez: I did. Confirmed that the J-vibe-to-pussy time was indeed longer. Started to feel all warm and yonic, but then I cross-checked that time against the times for some other 'indigenous' plays that the natives enjoy and found the J-v-t-p time was eclipsed by the time spent by 100 sweaty, pasty salarymen standing around in a circle and busting nut on a girl's face. What is the cultural meaning of THAT, I wonder...

What the hell happened to this blog? It used to be 90% interesting cultural comment, 10% lame entries like this one. Lately, the percentages have been reversed. Come on, Marxy, you can do better than this!

A recent survey into sexual satisfaction among people between the ages of 40 and 80 conducted by the University of Chicago in 29 countries found that the lowest satisfaction rate - 25.7 per cent - was in Japan.

can i get a citation, Martin Webb?

Martin (salutations!) sez: ...between the ages of 40 and 80

R. sez: Damn, I am just happy to see that this proves that some level of sexual satisfaction is possible with 80 year olds in ANY country! Time to take my granny to a host club next time she is here in Tokyo!

www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/06/images/060419.sex.pdf

You'd be better taking Granny to Austria, which ranked number one in the survey.

I imagine you'd get more for your money with a male escort there.

I wonder how often hosts in Tokyo go the whole way with their clients.

My granny probably would just bake them cookies anyway, since she probably hasn't "gone down under" since...oh, WWII I'd imagine.
According to some pos(t)ers here, if she comes to Japan, at least they will vibe up her cunt a bunch (before the bukkake scene) and make her feel like a woman so she can get her (senile/non-penile) 'gasm on.

Hosts and hostesses going all the way: It is my understanding (based on friends who work in the 水商売 area) that hosts often go all the way with their female clients, but that hostesses seldom do. But doesn't that seem to be common sense?

MW: Thanks for the link. I'm at school 30 miles north of U of Chicago and I like to keep an eye on those southerners. -g

I'm with momus on the lack of anal obsession. it's a niche market, even on the 7th floor of akihabara. All of the "get a chick drunk", etc stuff is equally present in the states, with a special emphasis on conning, gagging and very nearly physically injuring the women.
That sort of stuff is much more MOR in the states than in Japan, don't you think?

Though the premise behind this one floors me.

btw, relating to the original content... had a student my first year who was busted for prostitution at 13.
She may have been employed by a regular delivery health company and had her blurred-face pictures featured in advertisements at 14. She wasn't very good at English.

nate sez: very nearly physically injuring

r. sez: There are many forms of sexually gratifying punishment (to give, to receive), but among them, some of the LEAST demeaning are the purely physical ones, as verbal/emotional abuse quite often "scars"--or "pleases", depending on your slant--much longer. So I am not really sure what a comparison like yours even proves.

But just to play devil's advocate here (following up something that Inazo Nitobe, that guy on the 5000yen bill, wrote ages ago) since Japanese men seem to, metaphorically speaking, beat their wives in public anyway, why would they need to do that in the bedroom?
BTW, Nitobe makes the opposite observation about American men: they tend to treat their wives well in public and abuse them at home. But of course Nitobe was married to a heffer of an American woman, so we all know who wore the pants in his family anyway, right?

But anyway, which is the lesser of two evils?
1. Beat the wife up in public and have her crack the whip in the sack
or
2. Treat her like a queen in public and beat the pussy up in bed (at least this one gave us "The Whisper Song" and "Pull My Hair", right?)

Yawn.

Just to bring this discussion back into PG-13 territory, I also wanted to point out that Saaya Irie was no doubt an "otaku" phenomenon last year or so, but now with the brute Pureboi being her patron, the lowteen boob craze has gone overground.

But in some ways, this mag's interest is solely about breasts. Pureboi is so obsessed and nearsighted that they don't really care where the breasts are coming from, as long as they are big. They would give six pages to cancerous pig teats if they were giant enough.

I think PG-13 is your safest bet for a conversatinal milieu, David.

but a quiet rejection of open sexuality

i don't think it's ever been a rejection as such ; rather pushed a little bit further into 奥. hardly though as it's always been 奥.
--------------
while i agree that there was a boom in puberscent fetishization from the 70s on (60s port would quite often feature rather voluptuous 20 even 30somethings in sailor costumes - which you still see now) a look through late edo and meiji photo archives would show plenty of 12 y. olds, even younger, disturbingly often accompanied by 'western' , hairy , russian french etc sailor types. (pre)puberscent sexuality is also common in taisho ero-guro.

Interesting article, Marxy. I must say that I prefer the more discursive tone in this one.

From a psychoanalytical standpoint, I believe there's a huge difference between the Japanese Loli obssession, and the Nabokovian Loli preferences of the rest of the world. The former is predominantly focused on a prepubescent physicality, while the latter appreciates the precocious likes of Irie-chan. Perhaps precociousness lends an air of legality, a sort of justification that appreciating it isn't a perversion. Irie-chan may be the freak, but the men watching her are normal men with normal, healthy sex-drives, unlike the lolicon freaks at Akihabara.

As Marxy pointed out, what is most worrying is that people are perfectly willing to exploit her at the age of 12. Perhaps the only thing worse is seeing 12 year olds with 12 year old bodies sexualised in a gravure book. Or is it?

Unfortunately, it's difficult to discuss this topic without making a lot of inferences about where the mainstream lies. That is why pornography is the worst place to look for comparative examples between Japanese and American misogyny.

Japanese Loli obssession, and the Nabokovian Loli

guys. guys, we're drifting into crass generalisation territory here. (again) , take araki-tensai, the king of lolita , way closer to nabukov that to sailor moon

Methinks this issue simply walks hand-in-hand with the Japanese males' rather cockeyed perspective of the feminine.

Always was disappointed with J-society's lack of pressure for ubiquitous mental maturity...

They never put Danica McKeller in a bikini at age 12 in Penthouse.

Yep, it's been done. Danica shows it all here

the premise behind this one floors me

Nate, I think that's covered in my piece The black ships.

The black ships.

If you made a paper list of all the acts that commonly appear in porn around the world, it wouldn't vary that much. I think it's the execution of Japanese AV and eroguro productions that fascinates.

As for Saaya, I hope her parents are at least chaperoning her to all her shoots, as the gravura shutterbugs get their moe rising.

They would give six pages to cancerous pig teats if they were giant enough.

Hah! This reminded me of a dear friend back home -- exactly the choice of words he would use. Thanks for that.

Well, I'm guessing there's a fair few one-armed, downcast-looking right wing bigwigs hiding somewhere around tokyo because full-nudity child porn was banned in Japan in 1999. And I was personally heartbroken to hear that enjo kousai is also now illegal.

But anyway that's beside the point .. not that I can tell what your point actually is. Talk about a non-problem. Any honest male will admit she looks good. Only you puratanical Americans will whip yourself into a spaghetti knot frenzy of denial and rationalization over how you're much too enlightened to ever admit to finding at least her image attractive - of course, in the 1970s America was the world leader in hardcore Child Porn.

Ah, America .. land of free speech, as long as it's not about this, this, this, this, or any of these. Land of the illegal image file. Land of the Junior Miss Beauty Pageant but even think about performing a perfectly natural act, necessary for all human life and the foundation of every loving relationship, with a girl even one day younger than a totally arbitrary cutoff date and you're a pervert to be labelled, harrassed and abused for the rest of your days.

Blah, blah, blah .. I'm sick of it. Sick of double standards, sick of faux moralism. Marxy, it's a fucking picture, she wasn't forced to do it, and it didn't damage her in any way. Anything else is just your own ridiculous post-modern self-projecting pretension. Funny how you're presumably against forms X, Y and Z of bible belt irrational pseudo-moralistic grandstanding, but A, B and C are "so obvious, I don’t need to harp on the points". The funny thing is you admit that Americans have been sexually repressed for centuries. Keep joing those dots, Marxy, you might get somewhere eventually.

And good choice of example, by the way, with enjo kousai. Guess you didn't hear about it in Feminist Weekly, but a lot of the time it wasn't just some materialistic little slut taking advantage of her temporary power of attraction over a rich businessman to get herself a new handbag.

No, what happened quite a bit was that some poor deprived idiot followed his natural biological urges any way he could, and ended up paying a huge sum to try to satisfy some desperate need he had no other way of sating. And unluckily for him, he'd have chosen some vicious little 14 year old bitch who didn't even sleep with him, but had her friends outside taking pictures they'd then use to blackmail him. Of course, they knew they'd never be punished - how could any child ever do any wrong, right? Not a few people, exemplarary in every other aspect of their existence, committed suicide after this kind of episode. What little angels!

Or take the case of someone I knew of in Australia, nice guy, an investment banker. He went to a party, had a good time .. had a very good time actually, met a lovely girl, and they ended up going back to his apartment. She said she's on the pill, they didn't use a condom. She asks for his phone number so they can meet again, he's over the moon.

Next day she rings him back, says she's 15 years old and unless he pays her $10,000 that day she's going to the police and saying she was raped. He pays, of course. She does it again for the next 3 weeks and gets a total of $40,000 before he's sure she's had a period and there's none of his DNA left in her. He also throws away every sheet on his bed, the clothes he wore, everything she touched, had his carpet steam cleaned, and left the country.

Precious little angels! How does that fit in with your theories of christian morals and child development that are so obvious, you don't even need to talk about them?

As you can see I have a chip on my shoulder about this very topic, sorry if I sound like an asshole but you're staring very determinedly at one side of a decidedly two-sided coin.

Wow Sho...

Just wow...

Sho, sorry if I sound like an asshole, but you're an asshole. Let me guess: you're one of those special kind of men currently taking advantage of - oh, excuse me, I mean dating, or simply having a sexual relationship with - an underage girl? Or you're looking to do so? Or do you just think you're entitled to anything or anyone you want, no matter how young they are, what the law says about it, or who ends up being damaged by your selfishness?

Either way, you sure do sound like a bitter, cocked up misogynist. I hope you're sterile, lest you ever father a little girl.

Anyway, I don't think that the reasons why men prefer young girls are a mystery in any culture. Younger girls are lively and cute, and they are too naive to know when and how they are being taken advantage of. They don't understand when they are being used as sexual objects, as opposed to being genuinely liked or loved, and they behave as any woman who believes that she is loved/desired would behave... perhaps even more passionately, as younger girls lack a certain jadedness that some women develop in their 20s. Also, young girls are easy for even the weakest men to persuade or control. WHat a turn-on.

Don't children deserve to retain their innocence for as long as they possibly can? Don't children deserve to be something other than wack-off fodder at the age of eleven?! Each of her parents, her manager, and every "honest male" with a hand in his pants at the sight of her has a part in taking this girl's innocence, and her chance to be something more than a sexual object, away from her.

momus: on being floored... since the video I linked to is nama-naka-dashi it's the implicit aids play that floors me more than anything, but again, like I said in response to the black ships entry, it is in the first and last degradation porn.

Good god... 41 comments already, if one thing is for certain, its that people flock to a discussion about a 12 year old pinup like obatarian to a sale rack.

There's a somewhat lengthy post on 2ch about the disdain or lacktherof of Berryz Koubo fans, fandom, lolitacomplex etcetera--- It's always been my position that purely as a financial matter, bands like C-ute & Berryz Koubo have served whatever demographics consumed them, be it 9 year old girls, Akiba otaku, or middle aged men... Commerce (it has been noted), not some insideous plot was at work here.

The thing about Saaya Irie is, as was poined out, she's quite well developed in thee, chest-area if you will. Typically, a figure like this is associated not just with mother-like qualities in a classical sense, but more currently, as a mature hour-glass firgured woman/vixen/nymph ideal. Which leads me to the question--- what is more troublesom, is the lust after a 12 year old girl who's body is advanced into a more mature state worse, better, or much much worse than say, the mass consumption of the typical gangly bodies, awkward teeth, & minature bodies of obviously young pop idols?

Is the desire of some ideal (adolescence) worse than the actual desire of the object?

Oh, and I'll say, I think marxy, that you're solely responsible for bringing Onyanko Club back into public conciousness & discourse.

r: I'm not in the business of judging individuals' sex practices... mainstream american porn is much more concerned with making the woman an object of derision and of physical abuse. See almost all american gonzo, and compare to the shelves at tsutaya. that's where my observation ends, as a comment on momus'.

graviaて何？

Yep, it's been done. Danica shows it all here

I can't tell if you are joking. Those pictures are not from when she was 12. Can't wait to find out how the Wonder Years proves me wrong next. Pretty soon you'll tell me that Madeline was just a figment of Kevin's imagination - a theory I am developing.

Gravia(グラビアorグラヴィア) is a genre of "idol" media (mostly videos) where girls prance around in bikinis. It never gets into explicit territory, but it is generally sexual in nature - a grey area of pruriency that wouldn't find a market in most other places.

Oh, and I'll say, I think marxy, that you're solely responsible for bringing Onyanko Club back into public conciousness & discourse.

I had assumed that I was just ripping off "The Encyclopedia of Japanese Pop Culture" with my Onyanko analsysis, but I checked it recently, and the author neglected to mention that the songs had any sort of questionable content.

All in all, I am less interested in the consumer drive for dirty pictures of a busty 12 year-old - although it's a meaningful development if widespread - and more interested in all the checks and gates passed in order to get her in the mainstream - in magazines, in trains. I think it's fair to say that Saaya Irie has systematic support.

I am sorry for drawing the conversation into comparing misogynies. I do not want to apologize for the American porn industry. Despite all the somewhat apt comparisions with Miss Teen USA etc, I still think putting a 12 year-old in a bikini in an over-18 nudie magazine is not exactly "common" or even "possible" in most other mainstream cultures. Whether this is bad or good is a personal/moral choice, but I do not think the whole shebang originates in any form of "progressivism."

Did I type gravura? Must be my graphic design background. But what's the source of the word gravia? Never could figure it out. GRAphic + ? maybe.

Sho...Oh, never mind.

David (in his original post) queried: Are you ready to be a producer as well as a consumer?

R. postulates: Interesting question, and perhaps the most pertinent of all. In fact, the answer to this whole "what do to" question might be encapsulated right here. Barring any problems that inhibit the natural functional of bodily systems, f you are not capable (physiologically) to be a "producer" (i.e., biological re-production), then as a general rule of thumb, you should probably not be subjected to being "consumed" (i.e., as an image or actual object of sexual desire).

JEdict (somewhat worthlessly) defines グラビア as "noun gravure; photogravure; rotogravure; gravure picture." This continues the long standing J-E dictionary tradition of defining Japanese words using obscure or obsolete English terms. (This tradition is the bane of anyone who's job includes reading essays written by Japanese students.)

More helpfully, Wikipedia explains that, "Rotogravure (gravure for short) is a type of intaglio printing process, in that it involves engraving the image onto an image carrier. In gravure printing, the image is engraved onto a copper cylinder because, like offset and flexography, it is a rotary printing press."

Of course, as Marxy has pointed out, in Japan the term refers almost exclusively to softcore pornographic shots. Why JEdict doesn't tell us this is a mystery.

sho said sorry if I sound like an asshole and while others have commented already, somehow I doubt that sho is sorry at all. In any case I feel nothing but contempt for the apocryphal investment banker of your story. If he could afford $40K in payoffs (what currency I wonder?) he could afford a condom. As pappy once told me "a man shouldnt stick it in unless he can pay for what comes out".

so marxy, as for this girl's parents, why assume they arent there? It really wasnt that long ago when selling one's daughter was an accepted accepted means of supporting the family.

momus: perhaps the vibe time on screen is longer here, but what about the cunnilingus screen time? I suspect that is longer in the US market. I have no idea about how EU porns would compare to this, however I strongly suspect we'd have to eliminate germany from the discussion right off as they go for even weirder stuff than the japanese do (unsurprisingly the adult video stores in germany are incredibly well organized...).

It would be really interesting to see an objective by the numbers comparison of average screen time given to various activities within a random sampling of 100 videos per major market. Additionally it would be good to see a per market per genre count of titles released over a period of time. Let the numbers speak for themselves and let the chattering masses interpret as they may.

r: I believe you have hit the nail right on the head as to why pretty much all societies have a taboo on the area of adults having sex with children. Its really a practical thing in survival of the species terms. I wonder if Jared Diamond has covered this topic, I'm sure he would provide a practical non moral explanation on the matter.

If he could afford $40K in payoffs (what currency I wonder?) he could afford a condom. As pappy once told me "a man shouldnt stick it in unless he can pay for what comes out".
Oops! Got me there! Boy, guess it was his fault all along. What an idiot! Lol!

Sho, sorry if I sound like an asshole, but you're an asshole. Let me guess: you're one of those special kind of men currently taking advantage of - oh, excuse me, I mean dating, or simply having a sexual relationship with - an underage girl? Or you're looking to do so? Or do you just think you're entitled to anything or anyone you want, no matter how young they are, what the law says about it, or who ends up being damaged by your selfishness?

Either way, you sure do sound like a bitter, cocked up misogynist. I hope you're sterile, lest you ever father a little girl.
Wrong on all counts. I just don't like injustice, and I see a lot of injustice when certain groups of people are granted rights far beyond their deserving, and proceed to abuse them.

As for the fathering comment, fuck you.

wadda pip! "injustice"... someone buy this guy a lollypop! better yet an old ice cream truck with a matress in the back

chris b's got the bomb.

Yeah, whatever. Being attacked by you lot is like having my shoelace gently tugged by a poodle.

Anyway. I want marxy to explain what harm has been done to this girl, and give good reasons for why the availability of her pictures is bad. I want some properly reasoned justification of why the american moral position is superior to the japanese one on this matter, without reliance on crutches such as "because everyone knows it is" etc. Because I don't think you can give them.

Regarding the attitude I see here, I think it's hilarious. I can't think of another group of people who are so absorbed in their own intellectual and cultural superiority than those who frequent this blog. And yet here you are, toeing the party line more enthusiastically than George W Bush. Looking down on another country's cultural standards. Self-righteous. Holier-than-thou. And if anyone questions you, it's out with the "LOL U R A PEDOFILE" comments.

You're fucking laughable.

Sex is more than a pair of breasts.

I want to know her eyes are looking at me...

This will probably reveal the fact that I've watched far too much anime, but I can offer this sentiment as attested in「涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱」(The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzimiya): the titular character says something about a childlike face and large breasts being best of both worlds.

It would suggest that the Japanese obsession is far from pedophilia proper (attraction to pre-pubescents) but rather more toward women who have secondary sexual characteristics while remaining immature in terms of facial characteristics and behavior---which would go along with the idea that Japanese men are just feeling threatened by the (supposed) liberation of Japanese women.

As for Sho's last question (did he find this site just by googling the girl's name, I wonder?) it occurs to me that Momus should have a much harder time answering than Marxy. Marxy can at least offer the traditional arguments about the ability to consent with some apologies for the arbitrary nature of the cutoff (note: even in the US, so-called Romeo and Juliet laws prevent 18-year-olds from being arrested for have sex with their 17-year-old partners). Momus and the other pomos in the house will have to explain why we're suddenly allowed to make intercultural judgements on some sort of objective basis of acceptability. After all, even the Puritans took 13-year-old wives ...

I was just in the Metropolitan Museum this morning, and my gaze fell upon Therese Dreaming by Balthus, an undeniably erotic painting in which Therese, without Saaya Irie's chesty claims to womanhood, sits with her legs parted while a cat laps a bowl of cream below her.

Suddenly the ghost of Marxy sprang up beside me and said "I have always believed that a majority of men are not attracted to the bodies of pre-pubescent females." I wondered who to blame for the beauty and erotic vigor of this image... myself, or God (who, of course, created little girls)?

I also wondered what the difference was between putting a sexy little girl in your painting, your museum, or your magazine to spice it up, and putting a little girl on your blog to spice it up, but adding some disapproving text about the use of little girls in spicy images? Silly question: the difference is the disapproval.

I'm glad you brought up Balthus, because I think it's a related issue. Certainly you are right that he is eroticizing young girls (and boys), but often it is a subtle gesture, a certain angle of the legs - not just exposing giant breasts.

The big difference, of course, is that Balthus is not selling a real-life half-naked girl for prurient intent. Maybe he used a young model, I don't know. But my guess is that he could write on the back of the painting, "No young people were harmed in the creation of this masterpiece." And that young girl never became an erotic commodity within herself. Obviously, sex sith elementary school girls is going to be a concept that exists, but whether we make that into a concrete market with buyers and sellers is a different issue.

In this certain issue, my problem comes more from context than content. There will be 12-year old gravure in fringe markets, but the absorbtion into normal pornographic magazines should be at least considered a new development in the culture. As someone mentioned, that look may have been an "anime" ideal, but now it's a fantasy two steps closer to real life.

Silly question: the difference is the disapproval.

I could have used way more spicy images. Do a google image search for Saaya to see what I mean. I used the tamest pics I could get from the Pureboi site.

Of course, I understand that a lot of people out there are not going to find any philosophical problem with Saaya Irie - and I am not interested in pushing my personal opinion on you. I do think, however, that her existence and impending fame does say something substantial about contemporary Japanese culture - whether it is a positive or negative development, that is up to you.

sho, if you're the same sho, you usually seem like a reasonable guy, but seriously man... sheesh. Your friend gets scammed for being stupid with a chick, and now every female regardless of her age is in utter control of her sexuality? And this is the Japanese way? Marxy's point is that this is a recent development in Japan, making it quite clearly NOT the japanese way.

If the girl that scammed your friend was 15, it seems to only further illustrate that young girls are not morally culpable beings... whether that be in regard to others or to themselves. The big problem with fucking kids is that they are "fucking idiots". I work with them all the time, they're dumb as bricks... and have the morals of serial killers.

oh nate
i was going to write something semi-intelligent about how ridiculous this lumping of 'kids' into one box has developed so far in this entry but you've got the bomb mate.

noticable in this entry is a return to the classic formula: marxy centrefield, chris b and nate on the wings. it promises to be a good season for the neomarxisme team.

Marxy: "I certainly don't think American porn is less misogynistic, but it does not fit into the hegemonic political system the way it does in Japan"

Sorry, tracking back a bit here, but it's an interesting point. I think there's a parallel that can be made with the page 3 girls in British tabloid newspapers. While individual papers tend to have their own historical political bias, tabloids tend to be right-wing (and owned by Rupert Murdoch). The Sun now has a feature called "News In Briefs" (geddit?) where little speech bubbles attached to the topless beauties announce things like:

"You don't need to be an international diplomat to realise the world is better off without Saddam. We should be proud of what has been achieved."

and

"I don't want my tax wasted on pen-pushers and bureaucrats. The axe should fall next on those silly politically-correct council jobs."

It's frequently hilarious, if you can be bothered to read it, but it's a handy demonstration of the way that pornography and right-wing/conservative views frequently seem to go hand in hand.

Perhaps America, with its stronger Christian influence on the political right, is different, but the idea of pornography riding in tandem with (and even being used to enforce) political hegemony is well established. One of my students is reading 1984 at the moment (he hates it), but I seem to remember that Orwell also makes a similar point.

Interesting point. Thanks for adding that. I am less privvy to things that happen in Europe.

Carl,

Are you referring to the software named JEDict? If so, that's simply an application (a very good one) that reads j-e dictionary source files: edict, enamdict, kanjidic etc.

What needs to be updated are the original dictionary files, or perhaps a new pop culture & slang dictionary should be created so we can look up words like パイズリ at our leisure. Wikipedia Japan has an entry on this activity. It says Louis XV de France was the originator?? LOLZ! ahem...

I'm sure the readers of neomarxisme could draft an excellent dict supplement. Marxy, get us a grant, will you?

I don't need no grant to look up パイズリ at leisure, buddy.

I've got the bomb?
Call them serial killers or retards, but kids are by the most absolutely strict definition of the term "undeveloped". Even if not all humans can be counted on to acheive legitimate agency over themselves at the same pace, the further you climb down the ladder, the more likely children are to be incapable of attaching reasoned meaning to their actions and actions performed on them.
Where an individual draws the line and where the line ought to be drawn for the young individual may vary widely, but if we want any law in place, there has to be a set line... leave that to local standards, but case-by-casing is no good. No one's out there advocating abolishing speed limits (or blod alcohol limits) in favor of each driver deciding for himself how well he or she can drive.

I would also guess that wherever you draw the line, 12 is far from it. (Except for the sexual consent law in Japan until recently... Anyone have the history on that?)

I don't need no grant to look up パイズリ at leisure, buddy.

Why, did you find a dictionary that already has an entry for it?

I was trying to keep the thread tit-themed, but my point was that j-e translators could benefit from updated resources -- vulgar terms included.

I'm fine with the law, whatever it is. not in the habit of testing the limits in my ripe old late twenties. local standards rule.
if the local standard were twelve, it would imply that the society approved, and would very likely mean that the society was, via school or family, impressing the meaning (whatever that might be) of sex upon the lil' tike.

That the broader societal interest creeps lower and lower reflects the desire to get busy with those who dont have said awareness. If the age were 12, twelve-year-olds would be too worldly for a certain type of fantasy.
"Wife" may be a bit too set in stone about things, but she's right that libido piqued by the innocence of youth is at least as interested in the ability to con the youngster as in the so-called purity or clear skin or whatever.

marxy IIRC the age of concent here was 13 until rather recently.

Sho, rather than us defending societal norms regarding kiddy porn and paedophelia, how bout you rationally defend it and tell us where you think the "right" cutoff age is?

well, seventy posts and it looks like we all still believe a maneki neko is waving 'bye-bye'.

rereading bits of this ... this has turned out super-sinister - yet another result of the adult (white, (anglo??)) male's predilection for mental masturbation. anyone not fitting the category has been labeled and excluded (not as an actual, coz they'd hardly come near here, but even as a symbolic presence in the forum)

dude, children other than being under-developed (white, male) adults are complete entities in their own right, so are japanese and germans. freaky, freaky, freaky .... our law-makers ...

"yet another result of the adult (white, (anglo??)) male's predilection for mental masturbation."

Masturbation is healthy. It keeps things down there in working order for when you really need them. Mental masturbation does the same thing for the brain.

Hi, great site

alin, did your parents make you earn your own keep from the age of 2 or something? or are you just libertarian to the point of illogic, believing that the law should offer no protection whatever to the weak?

switching the word "undeveloped" which implies future growth, yet unrealized, with the hyphenated "under-developed" points to your own feelings of inedequacy so common among whatever ethnic group it is that you belong to. (my best parody of alin-thought)

"well, seventy posts and it looks like we all still believe a maneki neko is waving 'bye-bye'.
" Yes we get it, but would you even take offense if someone suggested that you sound like a child molester justifying himself?
I'm glad not to inhabit the weird-ass "Freud=the font of all wisdom" world you live in, where decrying the sybmbols of nazism is just as "super-sinister" as asking that the law protect those incapable of protecting themselves.

(cracks knuckles, says to (white, anglo?) self "that ought to have maximum emotional impact")

nate: what you tend to call logical looks to me like a very basic (underdeveloped/undeveloped ?) set of reductions and abstractions.

Jasong,

I was being sloppy in my language. I knew that JEdict is the application (a Java look up engine for edict), but for whatever reason, I wrote the wrong thing.

Anyhow, "Genius" is pretty bad too. It's used in a lot of the electronic dictionary brands my kids use, so I get all sorts of wonderfully obscure translations of things.

Wiktionary is doing some interesting work with identifying kanji and whatnot. I'd be interested if someone could compile that information into an edict file replacement.

So if one is neither white, anglo (which, IIRC describes a very specific ethnic group that settled in parts of Britain and Germany that we have no sure idea marx is descended from) or male, is there room in this discussion?

Sho: Setting aside the issue of whether or not she allows pictures to be taken of her without coercion, there is still harm perpetrated. Being a horrible and occident-centric type of person, I blame it on Brittany Spears. The harm is the same harm that thousands of inner-city black children in America are facing--the lie that the only way to get what they want is through selling their bodies, talents and futures. It just so happens that in Jesusland, we tell black boys the only way to get out of the ghetto is on a sports team, despite the fact that they have a higher statistical probability of becoming doctors, lawyers, astronauts, etc., than they do of playing in the major leagues. It’s a function of hegemony. Like porn, except without any of the redeeming qualities.

This woman-child (can she really be called a girl if she's become masturbatory material for a large portion of the population?) was robbed not of her innocence, because that's a stupid thought in itself, but of her potential. In a few years she'll be forgotten, and her wonderful career as a media darling put to an end. Whereas, if she hadn't been as pliable, and her managers had not been as... let's leave off with words like unethical, and just say short-sighted, they could have created an actual career for her. Instead of turning her into a genetic curiosity. She in turn, is robbing that possibility from all of the precocious looking girls who come after her. Vicious cycle?

Now, about the, women are all vicious, evil, conniving little bitches, even before they’re legal and so because women use the base and perverted natures of men to propel themselves ahead, we shouldn’t examine those base and perverted natures, line. That’s a bunch of crap. It sounds to me like this guy was just so grateful to be laid that he didn’t ask any questions. Regardless of who he slept with, that’s a very very bad place to be. Are these girls, any of them innocent? No. What they are is inexperienced. Not sexually, but in the way that the world functions. The basic physics underlying all human interaction, what these girls lack isn’t the knowledge of how to spread their legs, but a basic understanding of cause and effect. We protect children more than we protect adults because, lo and behold, with the title adult comes the expectation that you are capable of understanding that your actions will have an equal and opposite reaction. A child’s first response to any trouble is to do anything to make the trouble go away. Lie, cry, look helpless, manipulate adults and parents around them as best as they know how. Maturity requires taking responsibility. No matter how precocious a girl or boy may look or seem to you, if they lack this basic understanding, they need to be protected from people like you. That’s as simple as it is.

“. Looking down on another country's cultural standards. Self-righteous. Holier-than-thou. And if anyone questions you, it's out with the "LOL U R A PEDOFILE" comments.”
You do have a point there. However, I think those on this blog are just as willing to turn the critical lens back on their countries of origin. I don’t think they’re looking down on Japanese culture for doing something that every other industrialized culture seems to be doing. Something amusing to see, at least in American culture, is that while men claim to want an intelligent woman, and to be disgusted with the sorority trope, the women they actually get involved with, fetishize, and idealize are rarely portrayed as intelligent.
Definitely not something I would claim is isolated to Japanese culture.
It’s a disturbing phenomenon when a culture’s female pornstars are on average, more intelligent via objective standards (IQ tests) than their doctors, lawyers and astronauts. Right?
And just to make this an even more convoluted post, I’m wary of a time when prepubescent bodies are making their way into wank mags.

rgc#364: It’s a disturbing phenomenon when a culture’s female pornstars are on average, more intelligent via objective standards (IQ tests) than their doctors, lawyers and astronauts. Right?
- citation? please, just out of curiosity. Aside from the usual critique of IQ tests' ability to measure intelligence

rgc#364: This woman-child (can she really be called a girl if she's become masturbatory material for a large portion of the population?) was robbed not of her innocence, because that's a stupid thought in itself, but of her potential
- Hard to say if her non-idol potential was greater than her idol potential. Statistically, I would dare say that is probably not the case.

As for idol industry, the younger the greater the earning potential because generally the cutoff age for idols that haven't "made it" is ~22

I'd like to see a citation on that one too!

The arguments for the need to protect the young against exploitation are actually not all that obvious. Global norms that protect children from abuse and exploitation are a recent phenomenon in human history - in the West, any talk of sex at all was taboo for centuries. But society on a global level has by now agreed that yes, children need protection from exploitation. Though it hasn't always been that way, in the current climate there is a consensus (backed by UN treaties etc) to protect children so that they might survive intact into adulthood. Those arguing that a stable society/economy requires an educated and non-traumatized population have won, people. No amount of self-centered or fanatical shrieking is going to change that, so those of you who would appeal to our insecurities and insist that right is wrong and wrong is right - please take a look around you. We have learned as a society and therefore shouldn't need to argue every little detail for the uninitiated.

That is not to deny that people may find Irie attractive or that there will always be a population that must fantasize about 11 year olds, dude. Marxy put it well - the issue is "whether we make that into a concrete market with buyers and sellers." And the answer on my part at least is hell no, and the majority of the population in Japan, I'm sure, would very loudly agree, if it weren't for the debilitating fear of the porn industry's gangland backers. I felt a similar disgust while watching Jerry Springer in the 90s - do we really want to go down this road as a society?

A quick comment on Japan-US comparisons:

Why not? The quickest way for people to contextualize a part of a foreign culture is to compare it to our own. However, comparisons to the US have an added accessibility due to the disproportionate influence of US culture on Japan and the rest of the world. Plus, when you're in Japan, you'll be bombarded by old men and media coverage that compare just about everything in Japan to the US in broad strokes. Hence, the practice can serve as a useful shorthand to give readers an idea of what youre talking about. If you bristle at that fact because you're not American - tough shit, you'll still get most of the references.

The problem is that focusing on only two countries is a lot like focusing on "the West" or the "developed world" - it makes things seem like the two countries exist in a vaccuum. The worldwide developments on the debate over children's role in society, or even just the effects of Saaya Irie's rise to fame and semi-respectability, are extremely varied and dynamic - for example, increased demand for child sex in Japan can make the protection of children in Thailand that much harder as the illicit sex tourism industry becomes even more lucrative. And as Japan is East Asia's cultural leader (Japanese porn is the default since it's illegal) - Saaya Irie, as evidenced by the massive interest she's generated on the Internet, certainly titillates more than Japanese salarymen.

Um, I mean because porn is illegal in those countries

radndom google crawler #364: ...the women they actually get involved with, fetishize, and idealize are rarely portrayed as intelligent.

slow down there buddy! thats a pretty broad broom to be sweeping with. your data set is like portrayal(invovled with, fetishize, idealize). So you wanna say that generally american men dont get involved with intelligent women? Are all the intelligent women single then or have they found non american mates? etc etc etc. Even if you are only talking about portrayals, I think you have missed the mark.

Also I believe that momus has the exclusive license to words like "hegemony" around these parts. You may owe him royalties for mis/using it.

Furthermore, in regards to your commentary on the opportunities of black males "in the ghetto", I for one disagree with the liberal white guilt school of thought that young black males (or young males of any color) in the USA lack non entertainment based role models. Maybe I'm unfamiliar with this "Jesusland" you refer to as I've only lived in Texas and New York City as an adult. As long as I've opened this can of bees, allow me to say that I wholeheartedly agree with the recent statements of Dr. Cosby on this general matter. I believe that Marcus Garvey had something to say on this during the early part of the 20th century as well, but his words seem to have faded from the popular memory with time.

Adamu: pretty freakin cogent summary of the matter!

Adamu, are Japanese men buying Pureboi out of a "debilitating fear of the porn industry's gangland backers?" I think there are a few layers of analysis missing there. The question is, why are Japanese men's tastes (and the structures that both influence and legitimate them) going one way, while the "global standard" (UN treaties, and even Japanese domestic law) is going the other direction? What's the story on this downward trajectory?

my goodness, this is still going.
do have a look at actual pictures. even in the context of a 'mature' men's magazine (the act of vieving) this stuff is closer to what deluze/gauttari would call a 'becoming-girl', a 'becoming-child' of that particular demographic that all the super-sick, super-dirty stuff that's been dumped over the issue here.

postmodernism is a beautiful religion, huh?

First: There's more than one "guest" here- I have no beef with D&G (though I can't endorse Alin's repeated and often extraneous "appeal to authority" invocation of their oeuvre).

Second: All I asked was WHY tastes are changing, because they ARE changing, as Marxy describes. I have my own strong opinions about the morality of it all, but I would think the question of "why now- and how?" is worth addressing regardless of your stance on whether this is a good thing or not.

I would think the question of "why now- and how?" is worth addressing etc

absolutely, but as often the case here, not only here, probably now that everyone has released their rage, biases, baggages and so forth it might be possible to have an actual discussion; however the thing's moved on and most likely we'll see a repeat of the same.

the previous 'appeal to authority' was a half-arsed joke , however as often with my lame un-joke-like jokes i do actually have a point which i guess i don't have the space here, nor the debate skills, probably not the interest either, to expand on. One thing is certain though, when the american-college-trained mind runs the show here the discussion becomes monolithically narrow - with a bizarre, illusory, self-congratulatory sense of diversity, fragmentation - textbook dialectic. no offense meant

To paraphrase every Alin comment ever: "You are all wrong - not in fact, but in macrocontext. But I am not going to actually take the time to debate you. I am just going to act exasperated and explain why I am not going to actually debate you."

I mean, I kind of get where you are coming from with the postmodern mumbo-jumbo, I am slightly sympathetic, but I am also not exactly sure what to do with your exasperation. You seem to be opposed to the tone and nature of this blog in that it is built upon 200 years of Anglo-American philosophy and critical culture.

coming up next: "The American College Trained Mind vs The Untrained Postmodernist Peasant Mind"

or some such BS....

Japanese men's tastes aren't on a trajectory away from global norms. For many men, they've been light years away from global norms for a while - and apparently that's OK. But unless they are in complete denial, even consumers and producers of softcore child porn are at least dimly aware that young women like Irie are being exploited - or at least that the rest of the world sees it that way. So in that sense the argument over the "rightness" of softcore child porn is already over.

The issue for me is that Irie in Pureboi represents a line being crossed that should be (but apparently isn't) forcing people to revisit the sorry state of Japanese society.

The "why now" question I think was pretty well dealt with by Marxy - a deep divide in relations between men and women has catapulted men's tastes in porn further and further from reality.

And as to "how" - I think there are periodic fads in porn - note that the trend toward ridiculously huge breasts in the US has died down somewhat. In Japan there seems to be a fad for "moe-kei" or "ero-kawaii" models these days. Irie fits into these categories fairly well. This may die down after some new and interesting model (hopefully older) turns men's heads.

Also, the "structures that legitimize those tastes" are important to look at since we are talking about Irie's breakthrough into "mainstream" porn. In the short term it's probably the mainstream TV stars who help set the trends for what men like. Also, the porn magazines themselves play a role by deciding who to put in. I guess you could say that Irie stands on the shoulders of models that debuted at ages slightly older than her. The 13-year-old gravure idol is an entrenched concept already. But I'm sure no expert on the trendsetting mechanisms in Japanese porn - maybe Marxy has a better idea?

But in terms of Japanese men's tastes vs. global standards and domestic Japanese law, I'd say that you have a good point - Japan hasn't done enough the demand side of the issue, making it attractive for the exploiters to walk a fine line to get around the supply-side measures that have been taken. And this Irie incident is just part of the story - underage girls in bikinis are all over the place as you're well aware.

I blame the so-called "political hegemony" which has a time-tested record of sitting on its hands for lack of impetus to reform. Even the law banning child pornography is said to have been inspired by external pressure to shut down servers hosting foreign child porn sites and has proven toothless against magazines printing bikini pics of run-of-the-mill 13-year-olds.

What this development may signify, in fact, is that Japan's mainstream has finally hit rock bottom - unless there's a developed 10-year-old around somewhere, Irie may be the limit for even Pureboi.

Thanks for the detalied answer Adamu. So, Japan's War on Child Porn mirrors America's War on Drugs in both its supply-side orientation and its predictably miserable failure. All that's missing are the defoliated Latin American villages. Though, as you mentioned earlier, this supply-side approach has led to a different sort of ravaging (dare we call it, figuratively, defoliation?) of Southeast Asia.

I do notice, however, that you seem to disagree with Marxy about whether mainstream male tastes are changing (Marxy sees transformation where you see continuity). Could either or both of you cite some sources? Thanks again for keeping this substantive.

Finally the discussion is beginning to make sense.

get out your stopwatch and time how long vibrators are applied to vaginas in the average J-porn, then do the same with a US porn film, and you'll see that female pleasure counts for more screen-minutes in Japan than it does in your beloved homeland.

The vibrator is a trope used in Japanese porn to cover the vagina and reduce the need for mosaics.
Its use is extended because it offers viewers the nearest they're gonna get to seeing any real close-up action before the mosaic kicks in.
This is also why women take so long to remove their underwear in J-porn, apparently preferring instead to pull their panties deep into their cleft in some kinda weird wedgie action.
Once the guy drops his bikini briefs, its mosaic city till the money shot on face or breasts brings us back to sharp focus.

Japan also avoids America's misogynistic anal obsessions.

Anal sex is less prevalent in J-porn as the male performers are usually too busy jamming everything but their cocks into the women's rectums, like eels and anything else they can find.

in regards to the insertion of things, the mosaic explanation goes a long way, and perhaps its the root of but doesnt fully explain the degree of 物入one sees.

I have a suspicion that all the insertion and the double teaming of actresses is related. Its sort of a combination of "woman as object" and a "low self esteem" in that either

1) woman above and beyond being the object upon which man can satisfy himself is insatiable, as in one man is not enough to satisfy
2) man in and of himself is inadiquite and incapable of satisfying (much less conquiring) woman on his own and thus if other men are unavailable for the task, implements must be deployed.

Good point, Chris.

I think that in a real sense, once the trousers are down, Japanese men are scared shitless of the sexual power that women wield.

This might explain the need to neutralize the threat by infantilizing women, incapacitating them with rope or acting out endless variations of rape fantasies.

In regard to the use of implements, it's interesting that in Western porn, the women have the power to pleasure themselves, while in J-porn they need a man to operate the vibrator.

A search through the urabon archives also shows a curious fascination with the incongruous use of vaginal specula and other surgical-grade implements as a seemingly necessary part of foreplay.

The lack of effort in hiding the embarrassment of the women shown peeing after taking a load in the face is also telling, as is the whole "ninja shots" way of seeing Japanese women.

Not that I spend a lot of time looking at J-porn or anything.

You called it, Chris. I never bought into Freud before, but Japan made a believer out of me. Minus one important concept, that is:

"We have no Oedipal problems in Japan- there's no competition from the father."

-Family Planning in Japanese Society, Princeton University Press, p.178

I'm not really down with the J-dude bashing. Though if you want to learn more about the ideas you're discussing, I'd suggest big daikon.

whoever this guest is:

I think what you miss in that analysis of the vibrator use is that when the woman takes control, the near core concept of J-porn is spoilt: that women lose all control at the slightest sexual provacation. Even in the dominant female situation, she almost always ends up begging for for more at the end, and struck dumb in the final scene, by the intense pleasure of kakerareru koto.

only the painfully (or immensely wealthy) maladjusted expect that sort of treatment in a mutual act. porn is an empowerment fantasy for dudes in a much more unmasked way here, but that doesn't mean that all dudes long most for "power".

my god , still going ..
yes marxy that's more or less it . fcukin' chatter/chatter/chqatter , like the last samurai said 'too many minds' (and in all honesty, as dzima said, you guys, far more often than not, just need to start typing the name of another country and there's already something patronising in it - you wouldn't see it coz you're too close to it i guess
Japan's War on Child Porn mirrors America's War on Drugs ... oh, fcuking hell

i think you guys could expand a bit and include some contemporary feminist japanese women's (no, it's not a contradiction in terms) writing (historicaly revisionist or not) in your educated noodles before returning to the topic. i'm too in-between now for namedropping

Japan's War on Child Porn mirrors America's War on Drugs ... holy holy holy , anyone with me on this or am i alone in my exasperation?

Had Marxy written an essay on that "nakadashi in Africa" video Nate pointed out, it would have a far more interesting and challenging read. As is, this is just another piece of paranoid moralistic Anglo obsession with child porn. And there's no wonder why Britain and America are the world's top "kiddy fiddlers".

dzima, cheap shot w/o a citation. In any case, that must be a damn difficult statistic to measure seeing as how 1) the baseline age has to be defined and thus is subjective, 2) what is the source of the "hard data"? 3) how are the countries of origin compared? I figure overall its probably statistically impossible have enough non biased data to arrive at a clean conclusion on this matter.

As for picking out a particular porn tape to be a more challenging subject, its all pretty damn subjective.

Brown, nate: The whole power thing gets weirder the deeper you dig. I work at an "elite" and power oriented company, I also happen to monitor the web traffic there. There are a number of senior employees who seem to regularly patronize services that offer a very particular sort of humiliation which I never saw openly advertised in the west (not to say it isnt available, but it that its not advertised so openly).

Two things that surprise me about this service, 1) the men seem to go in groups (I say this based on traffic analysis of different employees viewing times of the sites followed by email traffic patterns), 2) there are at least five businesses in the greater Tokyo area offering this service which indicates that there must be enough customers to support what would seem to be a very specialized form of humiliation.

In case you are wontering, the service involves having a woman in high heels step on the testicles of the client. Thats it. None of the stereotypical verbal or physical humiliation associated wtih SM services, AFAICT the service provider does nothing else towards the client achieving orasm, she just steps on his nuts while wearing high heels. The client is neither encouraged towards nor intenionally denied orgasm as might be found in other services, in fact the service provider sites advertise the neutrality of the women performing the act (tho that in and of itself is something).

I aint no psychological thinkin fella, but I'd say that this one bends the normal rules of power while at the same time magnifying the lack of mens power to the extreme.

Chris, you're always picking on me because of statistics ay? I better consult the Census beforehand every time I post comment here.

good story chris. good because it's real rather than projected or dubiously deducted and good because it points to a tiny fraction of the complexity of things.

now back to Japan's War on Child Porn mirrors America's War on Drugs ... , dear neomarxists please stop worrying about swastikas and shit and put a ban on this kind of lingo and this kind of logic before it's too late.

alin, you need to quit editing other peoples words to get the offensive (though not very) phrase you want.

The rest of that phrase = " in both its supply-side orientation and its predictably miserable failure."

In two regards, the topic under dicussion resembles another topic with which we're all familiar. Among the many reasons we are in the habit of comparing Japan to America is because we prefer to stay in the realm of our own experience. (Its either that or just point fingers at anglophones over kiddy porn... but we've already got someone here for that.)

While iceland at the time of the sagas may provide rich fodder for comparison to Japan, most of the zuschauer really dont know so much about it... meaning it would be hard to be accurate, and meaningless to most of us.

Your experience might be different, but thats no reason to get all bellicose. You're more than welcome to compare Japan to whatever you like... just understand that, as usual, you'll be talking only to yourself.

chris. agreed, interesting observation, though (I wish I could keep this clause secret from alin) that stuff exists in the states too.

I don't really inform my view of Japan that much from their porno, but one Japanese dude that likes root beer does not blow my theory on Japan hating root beer.

nate, I'm sure that in any major city in the USA you could find at least one person whose fulltime profession is to step on their clients testes while wearing high heels. I have to wonder though if you would find several businesses dedicated to that which advertise on dedicated websites. Maybe I should google for it....

As for root beer, thank goodness its available here at all. Nothing helps ease the pain of a Tokyo summer like an ice cold A&W in a frosty mug!

that's a product of the industry laws, I'd guess.

sure, you can get your body parts abused a la carte in the states, but it probably rare that a "shop" would refuse your nipples abuse because they specialize in scrota.

also, 5 shops in greater tokyo = 5 shops servicing a population the size of all of the 10 largest cities in america.

Nate, licorice is an even better litmus test than root beer. One nation, one civilization, one language, one culture and one race- united by an unwavering distaste for licorice since the time of Emperor Jimmu!

And thanks for pointing out where Alin selectively quoted me. I thought he'd appreciate the comparison I made, as I meant it partly in jest, but I guess his inexhaustible exasperation got the best of him!

In all seriousness, comparisons to, say, Korea or Italy (in general, not nec. on this particular topic) would probably be a lot more illuminating than the US-Japan comparison (a binary favored, incidentally, by a great many Japanese commentators as a way of emphasizing Japan's "uniqueness"), but I for one am not qualified to offer them. I wish I were, and I hope we'll hear more from people who are.

But hasn't this been said already?

Alin selectively quoted me.
editing other peoples words

now, how did i know you guys are gonna say this. i should have expanded in the first place (not that there's much point to doing it). i did carefully read brown's spiel and regardless of what follows it or the degree of irony(?!) my point was about exactly the bit i quoted , which encapsulated just about everything going on here, and in certain parts of the world for that matter.
simply put it goes something like:
A becomes aware of B who's different. A starts seeing and 'analizing' B's problems (effectively seeing only A's own problems). A with A's insight and supposed understanding offers B advice and help. 4 If B doesn't want or need to accept it A gets (self-righteusly but unawarely) agressive. now you guys surely don't see yourselves as aggressive, right? ok.

Japan's War on Child Porn mirrors America's War on Drugs ... now, guys, there's no war in japan and , strike me dead, there's no child porn; at least not what you're talking about

now, the reason i often can't engage in debate here so i shut up or try other means is that i find your pre-debate logic problematic if not plain scary. as bowie saiz 'i'm afraid of americans'

Brown, Nate:

It seems to me that Alin and I come from a similar place: we actually remember a world without McDonald's (Check Goodbye Lenin, you did have to wait 5 years in a queue to get a phone line). In that world we came from, the (indie) white American male buddyism happening on Neomarxisme hardly makes any sense. And of course we are going to attack the very core of the truisms that are thrown around here so haphazardly.

Momus sounds reasonable when he defends plurality but then on Clique Opera he goes and does the same thing people do it here: the binary thinking, Japan and America are the only two countries that exist in the world, diversity as long as Japan is the only "Other", etc. (when Nate says "compare Japan to whatever you like but you'll be talking only to yourself" shows that the war on Neomarxist tautologies is all but lost).

Strewth! Anyway, with me mates Saaya Irie is hardly a shocker and hardly breaking news. Enough said?

so dzima is this like knee jerk anti americanism or is there a point which you didnt quite expand on? I dont quite get what you are saying other than you lived in a telco3rd world. Seriously if you have an alternate viewpoint to what you see as "American male buddyism" make it instead of bitching and throwing around unsupportable factoids.

I for one am bored by complete agreement, but I do like those with a different point of view to actually have something to say.

dude , there's plenty being said (it's amazing how you don't get anything unless it's spelled out and then you still don't get it so it's got to get more verbose until the whole thing is lost in gibberish chatter) i'm saying for example that as much, as you guys might (say you) dislike your current administration, you are a spitting image of it. creating wars in places where there's none etc... ... i'"ll be talking only to yourself" , ok , more ironic is that in the neomarxisme-japan forums japanese people who add the odd comment also seem to be talking to themselves etc etc plenty to be talked but who's got the bomb mate

also, 5 shops in greater tokyo = 5 shops servicing a population the size of all of the 10 largest cities in america.

so chris's landed himself in quite a spot huh? work out the stats

So Alin, let me get this right: it's OK for you to make all kinds of assumptions about me, but not OK for me to say... well, really much of anything. And I should have known I was going to get accused of "buddyism" for addressing Nate directly in friendly tone. How awful of me. I don't feel like I need to address ad hominem attacks (can I play your exasperation card?), but one thing I will say is that you should really guess again in your assumptions about my background, personal history, and political inclinations.

Additionally, I would like to point out that this blog is written primarily in English- that probably does more to define its potential audience than the buddyism you decry. Personally, I wish Marxy would write more in Japanese. He might even find a more receptive audience that way, considering he's basically repeating and siding with the arguments of many Japanese left/liberals.

For the record, I know quite well there is no "War on Child Porn," but I was trying to make a point by describing it in that admittedly provocative way. Some people saw the parallel I was trying to draw, but you just jumped on the most superficial reading of my words and went off on the simple fact that I had the gall to compare the US and Japan.

Is my point not valid? Are attempts by the Japanese state to regulate the sex/porn industry and attempts by the American state to regulate the drug trade not supply-side approaches? And are they not miserable failures in terms of achieving their (officially stated) goals? If I can't criticize the approach the Japanese state has taken to the sex trade, am I also forbidden from criticizing the approach the US has taken to the drug trade? Please tell me exactly what I am and am not allowed to comment on, based on your perception of my place in the world.

Lastly, I don't particularly mind your description of me as aggressive, but you yourself seem to be pretty interested in policing of the boundaries of discourse on this blog.

I dont quite get what you are saying other than you lived in a telco3rd world.

Not very tactful but, as Alin said, I could literally write a book explaining everything.

I would like to point out that this blog is written primarily in English- that probably does more to define its potential audience than the buddyism you decry

Yes, yes, but isn't English the world's international language? Therefore shouldn't natives and ESL alike be invited to join any kind of public forum on the Internet using the English language? That's probably too idealistic of me because Marxy's Jimusho here are using both using English and Japanese (sensationalist statement coming up!) as an instrument of power so that everyone can pretend there's a debate going on in the comments section. And the democratic system has been succesfully exported once again.

So when you move to Japan, instead of changing your world views and learning/adapting to new ways, make sure you become even more patriotic and nostalgic about your Mother Land than you were before, boyz.

Actually, Dzima, I'm inclined to agree with you about this: "Marxy's Jimusho here are using both using English and Japanese ... as an instrument of power so that everyone can pretend there's a debate going on in the comments section."

I think it's an intriguing question about how Japanese and English are used in situations like this for including and excluding. I think this blog is probably ripe for some critical discourse analysis, so let's have it!

alin, although america (specifically this administration) did indeed invent war, and conflict in general, you paint with some damned broad strokes.

look around for the last time I've criticized japan as incorrect, bad, inefficient, whatever. At the ripe old age of three years in japan, I really like the place, and have little impulse to "correct" it. Like I mentioned on a humor-directed post... "alin and dzima disagree and I disagree with them". most of of pointless blathering is directed at either the two of you, or is just observations.
but again, in a big hurry to cast yourself as "other", somehow granting a perspective deserving deference, you lock the door to all americans.

let me take that one step further... in casting all of the americans as anti-japanese, you try to seize the title of "japanese" for yourself, and presume over and over to have better access to the idea of japaneseness than any of us amurrkins ever could.

Donald Richie is exemplar in my opinion. And he happens to be Amerikanski.

Power to the ESL people! *hands the mic to Beuys*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTOD5Pu6uVM

You people are still here?

As for Alin and Dzima, let's just say I get highly frustrated with your comments because you generally huff and puff so loud about the idea of this blog that you forget to actually write down your actually opposition. Alin always points his finger to some sort of offscreen late 20th century philospher who will deus ex machina defeat my argument. Dzima operates in a slightly matured form of name calling. I don't agree with Momus, but I listen to him, because often he spells out why he is opposing my idea in concrete terms.

But if you want us to keep ignoring you, just keep attacking the messenger, and when that fails, Anglo people in general.

And also, the more I travel around, the more I think that Japan and America actually have more in common than anywhere else. Not in philosophical or religious fundamentals, but in the way late-stage capitalism has changed values and social composition. We are merely comparing two heads of Cerberus.

As for Alin and Dzima, let's just say I get highly frustrated with your comments because you ... forget to actually write down your actually opposition.

try then to imagine the frustration of receiving this kind of reply over and over. while i respect your subtlety and irony when it comes to 80s 90s american pop culture and not only, you seem to fail to percieve any unless it comes from guys you went to school with.

policing of the boundaries of discourse on this blog.
ok brown, you are right, but it's always and only when i feel that the subjectivity and autonimousness of the thing discussed has been zeroed out , which does happen quite often here.

i Have to admit i found your entry into this entry somewhat ridiculous, the same kind of ridiculousness i found recently when american friend B of my american friend A asks me if i know any people in country X because her american friend C is there and wants to do some research. and i say what kind of research is friend C doing there , to see if i know anyone near that ; and friend B sais . well he doesn't know yet but he'll find something to research once he starts meeting people, so i say what the fcuk , no i don't actually know any people in country X.
now this is all vey subjective of me , i know , and your statement came to epitomyse to me something i've no clue you yourself stand behind or not.

nate: i obviously do ' paint with some damned broad strokes'

Alin said: "your statement came to epitomyse to me something i've no clue you yourself stand behind or not."

Thank you for that, honestly. Now, in the future, please do elaborate on what it is that you're thinking. Seriously, we (please don't infer buddyism from my use of the plural) can't possibly hope to engage with your ideas if we don't know what they are! Who knows, you might even change some minds- though I'm not sure if you want to (not saying that as a put-down, just that, again, I really don't know what you're getting at)...

One last thing, and I say this not just to Alin: Insulting people based on (your perception of) their nationality is simply not cool. Last time I checked, none of us had any say in where we were born. Trash a person's ideas, sure, but please don't trash them just based on what (you think) their passport says. Thanks.

brown: dont feel sad, at least I got your joke about the war on drugs.

alin sed so chris's landed himself in quite a spot huh? work out the stats and now Chris_B is even more confused.

dzima: waddayawant me to say if you had to wait 5 years for a telephone? "Wowzers man, that really does suck, sorry about that". Dont take it personal, I just grew up with a phone in the house.

If you could write a book, do it. I'll buy it and read it if its in English (I dont have time to get thru books in any of the languages in which I'm not functionally literate). If you got something to say, say it, dont take this world weary bluesman attitude on us. Aint no one no how gonna sit at the feet of the beret&sunglass wearin been there done that sonny type and wait for words of wisdom to fall with the Gitannes ashes. Ya dont hafta wear your heart on your sleeve but at least make yer point.

Oh and FWIW, my increased sense of patriotism comes from the perspective gained by distance. I hardly demand that anyone else feels the same way. AFAICT neither marxy nor r have that sense and they've been away about as long as me I think. Cant speak for the other americans in japan here cuz I aint been out drinkin with em yet.

what it is that you're thinking.

elaborate on what it is that you're thinking

Chris_B is even more confused. etc.

i had no idea i was that 分かりにくい or eliptical, (inscrutable, haha - i'm probably doing this because i want to associate myself with the japanese). i mean me and me mates do talk like this all the time and the conversation moves on.

so chris (coz it's a simple one) you say there's 5 special-testie-treatment clubs in TKO, nate sais that's hardly much in a city the population the of all 10 major us cities put together or something, i say (even assuming that there's 500 or 5000 people working at your place) (with 'a number' which i assume is greater than or equal to 2) ,statisticaly it's a remarkably high-density testie-mazo work-place you've found yourself in the megalopolis. - now i wonder what i omitted the first time around (when it was all in the context). now, no offence here, but in american english you do like sort of have to spell out every single word to make sense don't you?

Now can we start talking about Saaya Irie?

saaya is less hot than the "daughters of the palestinian revolution" chick from before... but even she wasn't anything that a guy without a proper modern history fetish could get into.

where all the hot women at?

Saaya has given "our penis" an intellectual erection.

Chris: I'll say it again, please watch Goodbye Lenin. It's set in a communist country but before globalisation ever happened there were plenty of places, which even though were fervently anti-communist, functioned in a very similar manner. In the film, it's shown how you had to wait years to buy a car or phone line from the government and the costs were absurdly high (thousands for a single phone line). I know your "I just grew up with a phone in the house" model seems very natural but it's obviously not for a lot of people out there. Maybe for you globalisation and neo-liberalism are "neutral" in colour but for Alin and I they are absurdly American (no insult meant for any individuals of course).

Anyway, that was not my point but rather an example to illustrate one of the reasons why we disagree in principle with what is said and discussed on Neomarxisme.

Marxy very conveniently used ad hominen arguments and didn't say anything when Brown proposed "I think it's an intriguing question about how Japanese and English are used in situations like this for including and excluding. I think this blog is probably ripe for some critical discourse analysis, so let's have it!". Get out of your bunker Marxy!

if this was still marxy's golden 1996 Dzima and I would no problem get a neomarxisme R&D grant just on our minority status. the fruit of our labour however would in the long run have been used towards evil globalizing purposes.

Never talk about "our penis" again! That was supposed to stay secret!

dzima, well its good for me to be reminded that people didnt grow up with phones. Its easy to forget that even growing up working class in the US, I had it pretty damn good. FWIW, I think that western europe did globalization really well long before the USofA was even a thought in anyones minds. I'm not just talking imperialism either, but full on global trade and the roots of modern capitalist finance tools.

Let me ask you this, do you feel nostalgia for the model you grew up with?

Not at all. But in the end of the day, the move from one pole to the other only represented a trade between poverty/lots of free time/being passionate or naive about things you like and having money but no time and developing a cynical world view (for example, it didn't take me long to realise that being "indie" has got nothing to do with how special and different those people subscribing this sub-culture are but indie is actually just a denomination of a certain social class indie people belong to. And thinking a little more about it, Sofia Coppola is the ultimate indie queen).

Alin might agree with me here, but when you finally get to live in the proper "most advanced culture on Earth" Western Civilisation you can't help but feel disappointed at how poorly advanced it is (and how dare they sell themselves as the model to be followed). That's when you sort of agree with Momus in his Japan vs America epic essays although, quite obviously, Japan is not heaven on Earth.

Chris, hopefully that made sense to you. I'll stop now because I don't want it to sound like self-analysis.

Dzima, absolutely agree , but i think we're doomed to look like idiots here unless the ideological power machine here diversifies somewhat. hey, at least we can become buddies.

'poverty' (for example).... i mean marxy was recently trying to sell the heartbreaking idea that, outside tokyo, and more or less where it fails to comply to his liberal model, japan of all places is living in poverty. momus on the other hand goes on with his variation on the noble savage. these are the poles here, in between nothing. (now one can critisize me again for bashing yet not saying anything and i say it's too damn obvious to say anything and before something can be expanded on it's got to be first acknowledged)

dzima, i've an idea, why don't we camp right here on this page and start a small colony , or at least some sort of ghetto.

I think that western europe did globalization really well long before the USofA

that was a different kind though in the sense that, however un-balanced, old-school 'globalization' was polarized between us and them with any possible variation in between. with the US it becomes an us only model

dzima I get where you are coming from with that. I think the thing is that people naturally percieve extremes of any given value. For one thing some people I know who immigrated to the USofA felt horribly dissapointed at the lack of gold paving on the streets. Others I know went and got a few jobs and made something for their families. Same thing goes for people I know here for that matter.

Online both momus and marxy are engaged in selling their personas. I've seen marxy break character online but I've never seen momus do so. I think part of the difference is that momus is professionally momus, he butters his bread from his persona. Whereas they may seem like two sides of a coin, they have very different adgendas as far as I can tell.

My point being with both those things is that once the sales talk is done, all that remains is perception. If you choose to feel dissapointed, I think thats your choice.

alin: once again american english's required level of detail has show itself.

"Liberal model"?

marxy: yeah you know, one of those starved looking women who supports PETA and other foolish "causes"

Alin, let's start a hunger strike until Marxy, the heartless white man, is willing to hear the beggings of the minority.

I think this is Romans vs Barbarians all over again, this time around set in Japan.

white male guilt is the burden of the henpecked girlyman